OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and above

[Risa]

No, all those wonders were hard built, no rush at all. Early GEs are too much of powerhouses (3 hammers and 6 beakers) to waste anyway.

[inca911]

I played a tiny, 3civ, Monarch, archipelago OCC game last night. I'm running into time expiration and could use some help.

As Frederick, I scored the key early wonders: Pyramids, GLight, GLibrary, Oracle for CS Slingshot, Internet, etc. Built Academy, ran 100% science and still had 50+ gpt, etc. My tech lead was large but I completed the ship in 2053, "losing" by time victory. I had roughly 200 hammers/turn, but the research was just too slow.

I keep running into time victory issues. I'm beating the AI in the space race, and often I'm running research in my city to try and shave more time off the clock but it isn't enough.

After I beeline to Apollo, I have to loop back to pick up earlier techs and research by myself through the tech tree. The AIs are quite far behind.

So let's talk late game. When do you pick up factory techs? Do you gift tech to AI? What does your late game tech research look like?

TIA

[Risa]

Maybe we need some more discussions about industrial era strategy, as we all can see that an early advantage does not guarantee late game victory. The player's research ability reaches its muturity in renaissance, while AI's typically won't reach theirs until industrial, due to large number of cities. It is the second phrase that OCCs differ from normal games.

The goals of industrial era are:
1) Research rocketry as soon as possible, to start SS construction as early as possible.
2) Reach fiber optics as soon as possible, to construct the Internet and gain back tech parity.
3) Delay AIs, especially top AI, as much as possible.

In my opinion, there are roughly 3 approaches to industial part of tech tree:

1) Computer beeline, a straight tech chain from scientific methods to computer, a.k.a. "industrial corrider" (a term derives from civ3, where it coincidently means a straight tech chain from scientific methods to radio).

Pros:
- It has best chance to get free great scientist from physics to compensate the loss of Great Library and monasteries, if you start scientific methods earlier than AI, that is.
- It is the shortest way to eletricity. If you plan to use watermill, that is important.
- Broadway and Rock'n'Roll are on the way. They are very helpful in resources trading deals.
- It doesn't require nationalism and constitution, two of most expensive renaissance techs, especially if you have Pyramids.

Cons:
- It takes fewest techs to modern age, so you don't have many to sell and you will want to buy a lot.
- It lacks of production boost.
- It is a little weak in military, though generally it is not hard to trading for rifling / chemistry or (buy military tradition and) sign defensive pacts with friends.
- Corporation is out of the line. Even if you get it by trade, you may not have the productibility to construct wall street. And cash is very important if you later have to rely on spying.
- You need to be the first to physics to get free great scientist.
- It is not the fastest way to rocketry.

2) "Production powerhouse", a branch of techs roots on chemistry. The goal is assembly line and railroad.

Pros:
- It can be researched through without touching scientific methods, thus prolonging the lifespan of Great Library (8 GPPT and 12 base beakers!) and monasteries (can up to +30% or +40% to research bonus).
- It has all the production boost (+175% bonus and railroad).
- Many good military units on the way. With rifling, there are infantry, machine gun, and cannon, and with one more tech (combustion), oil base navy as well. Pentagon is good, too.
- Corporation is in the line, and there are good amount of hammers to get wall street built fast.

Cons:
- As one major point of this approach is avoiding scientific methods, it may left you quite backward when finishing those part of tech tree.
- The production boost comes at a cost of 5 unhealthy points. That leads to the urge of hospital, which means delay your research futher by sidetracking biology and medicine.
- It is resource dependent. If you don't have coal and can not buy it yet, you will lose +100% of producion bonus and railroad.
- There will be quite a long period running out of meaningful things (to space race) to build.
- It delays rocketry too much. Combine with the point above, maybe the only feasible condition to take this way is that you are already late to scientific methods than AI and you need a relatively respectful size of military and you can bring every AI into world war to slow down their SS construction. But if that is the case, rushing through industial corrider to mass media for UN victory may be a good alternative as well.

3) Rocketry beeline, a research route of ((rifling) + (scientific methods -> physics) + (chemistry -> steel)) -> artillery -> rocketry. It is kind of combine of above two approaches.

Pros:
- It is the fastest way to rocketry, of course.
- As the first approach, there is chance to get the free great scientist. Alternately, there is also a choice of delaying to get scientific methods for a while.
- There are some production bonus and fair military units on the way.
- The research path is more horizontal, which means you can probably get some of them by trade, speeding up the process.
- As the first approach, nationalism and constitution aren't required.

Cons:
- Horizontal research path means it will be hard to get higher level techs of either two branches, let alone intentional tech embargo.
- Corporation isn't in the line. However, it won't hurt to research it or buy it, if you need to research constitution anyway.

[solo]

inca911,

If time is your main problem:

1) You will research all needed techs quicker by going to Computers before Rocketry. The lab adds a bit to research afterwards.

2) Are you adding all GP's received to your city? Doing this adds a considerable amount to beakers and research speed.

3) If you have a huge tech lead, then consider selling more techs to the AI, so that they will help out on research and contribute more techs to you via the Internet. You can't overdo this, of course, or they might build a SS first!

Since the new patch, I suspect that on Monarch and below, time has become more a factor than at the higher levels where the AI move so quickly.

[amicus curiae]

On deity the ai loves building oracle by like 1500 bc. There is no point in even going for it in my opinion. I have found the pyramids is still possible, but then your next focus needs to be writing/alphabet/literature to get the library as soon as possible.

I also find that alphabet is critical in deity games. If you don't get it soon enough you will be unable to trade any techs and willfall way behind. By going for it right away you can usually trade it (and sometimes writing) with a few civs and catch up on most of the early techs. I don't know how to get by without this on deity.

I ask for your advice however on where to go after literature. Obviously drama is one choice and is probably the best option in some cases. If you go back to try to get code of laws and CS, then you will fall way behind in tech. I have found that sticking to the top part of the tree at least gives you the chance to trade your techs to keep pace with the ai. But what type of strategy is compatable with the top half of the tree?

[solo]

inca911,

One more thing I forgot to add, is that you can switch from Pacifism to Free Religion for another research boost when you no longer expect many more GP's.

amicus,

Hmm, on deity I'm finding it easier to beat the AI to Oracle than to the Pyramids, but I guess a lot depends on who is building what in any particular game. For example, in deity games, I've seen the Pyramids completed as early as 2300 BC and as late as 750 BC by the AI and have also noticed disparities in Oracle completions.

It probably depends on the builder's civ traits or resources, which can make a big difference in construction speeds.

As for Alphabet first, you may be right, but each time I have gone this route, the AI beat me afterwards. The Alphabet section of the tech tree is in some respects a dead end, since it does not provide an entry to important later techs such as Education.


If I try to go deeper first using some sort of Oracle slingshot, I can often trade CoL and later Philosophy or Civil Service for all bypassed techs, including Alphabet, but by doing this I will miss out on most early wonders.

[amicus curiae]

solo - Have you won a OCC on deity? The ai has beaten me in every game regardless of what route I take, so I can't really compare...

So do I take it that you are opting for oracle instead of pyramids?

My game yesterday I started with stone close by so I built worker, pyramids right away. I also got two free techs from goody huts. I went right for great library and built that as well. But you are right, it is a dead end for the most part. There was no good way for me to get to CS and philosophy without giving up the tech lead I had. Once I got CS the ai had outpaced me on the top half of the tree and lots of them already had CS as well.

[Hauptman]

Ok, I love the whole OCC thing, used to do it way back in civ1 as a challange. so of course i do it here too...

first couple tries i used Noble, thought that would help me, actually had to win those games by points or diplo, no time for the space race.

Well a few days ago i tried it on monarch. Wow. I stomped the ai like it was nothing. this was actually EASIER than my previouse games. mainly, because of what i read here. I couldnt mess around and dilly dally, had to get the job done and done right.

China/monarch/pangea, coastal city.

Worker first with all the worker techs i needed, followed by a library. crank out the library academy as i built the Pyramids. Low and behold I actually got the pyramids while i beelined Beurocracy. Then beelined for literature and made the great library. Then i did something i rarely ever do... I went absolutley ape-poop with great people. I just cranked em like there was no tomarow, something like 5 or 6 specialist PLUS the 2 free ones. Made a great leader about every 8 - 10 turns. Settled every single one of them as i progressed through the tech tree. however Monty was my neighbor and that mean little muskrat declared war every 100 years like clockwork. Victoria and saladin were my other neighbors and we shared religion (planned of course) so i was able to get there help whenever i needed it. I have no idea how many GL's i had settled but my research showed +100 beakers from specialist... 25+ At least. When i built the internet i recieved... Fascism. "Did i just out tech the AI on monarch in a OCC?" I usually fall behind in my regular prince games. Apollo program completed around 1898. Spaceship Launched before anyone else even got close. In the end, my capital was producing 1000 beakers per turn and close to 200+ hammers. Oh. My. God. I have a new favorite toy.

Next game, Elizebeth (100% GP) /monarch/pangea, landlocked city. Allies on.

Same deal as before but no super trade routes (no harbor) Went generally the same as last game but I made the GLs faster (not really more though) but overall trade was lower. Ended at about 700 BPT. This game however i never fired a shot (monty again a neighbor, but early military + shared religion made him look at japan instead) Ended up Alling with saladin (permanent alliance) as we shared a border, when i had 1 space ship part to build (he had built 3) and you know what happened??? That senile junior partner decided to build a TEAM PART in his absolutly worst production city. Would have taken me 4 turns, took him 35. Wow that was frustrating. Still won though.

No save games as I'm at work...

Cant wait to try Emp tonight.

[solo]

amicus,

No way!!!

I think to have a chance, the human player must be first to Education and the following techs, and so far at least two of the AI in each game have beat me to it. I can sometimes get a tech lead on several of them, but not all of them.

Also I have been looking in vain for a start comparable to some that I have easily obtained at lower levels. Does the map generator seem more stingy with resources to you at deity? It does to me, because I think I have made enough attempts to rule out luck as a factor in this.

Even with barely adequate starts, I find myself losing out on wonders by just 1 turn very often! This has happened enough to make me wonder.

The AI on deity just may have too many advantages to overcome!

Welcome to Hauptman! Looks like you are enjoying this style of play and that you have figured out how to win!

[inca911]

Originally posted by solo
inca911,
If time is your main problem:
1) You will research all needed techs quicker by going to Computers before Rocketry. The lab adds a bit to research afterwards.

I'll give that a try. I've been focused on Rocketry first.

Originally posted by solo
2) Are you adding all GP's received to your city? Doing this adds a considerable amount to beakers and research speed.

Yep, I add them in. I'll use a Prophet for Shrine, usually rush GLibrary, and use one for Academy.

Originally posted by solo
3) If you have a huge tech lead, then consider selling more techs to the AI, so that they will help out on research and contribute more techs to you via the Internet. You can't overdo this, of course, or they might build a SS first!

They are so far behind that I'm going to basically be gifting them most everything. I think I need to let go of more tech and rely on the Internet more.

Originally posted by solo
Since the new patch, I suspect that on Monarch and below, time has become more a factor than at the higher levels where the AI move so quickly.

Monarch games do seem faster than Noble games.

Originally posted by solo
One more thing I forgot to add, is that you can switch from Pacifism to Free Religion for another research boost when you no longer expect many more GP's.

Yep. I've been switching right away to get the extra 10%.

Originally posted by risa
Maybe we need some more discussions about industrial era strategy, as we all can see that an early advantage does not guarantee late game victory. The player's research ability reaches its muturity in renaissance, while AI's typically won't reach theirs until industrial, due to large number of cities. It is the second phrase that OCCs differ from normal games.

The early game is currently not an issue. It's the later game that's too slow. I've built everything, including a deterrent military force, while I'm researching and even change over to pure research. Perhaps world size has something to do with it. I generally play Tiny worlds. Perhaps I need to go to a larger world to get the tech pace accelerated?

Does someone have a good Monarch start that I can use for comparison? I think I need something to measure against.

[korn469]

Well I won a space race victory on Deity/OCC, but only in an informal way. Here's the saves, I'm typing up an action report now.

[korn469]

Ok, first off I want to get some issues out of the way.

Basically I used the same set of rules as solo, except for the following changes:

*I played on a small map instead of a standard sized map
*Instead of choosing random AI's I picked my foes
*I took full advantage of picking my own map stats

Next I played this game in several different ways, trying a number of strategies. That may taint the victory, but I was using this game as an educational exercise.

My two most important considerations were the map settings and my opponents. I had played numerous different types of maps before this one, and I've decided that Islands is the easiest map to win on. I selected one Island per civ, no small Islands, high water, and cold. This limited total available landmass, plus kept the the AIs out of reach for a while. While this prevented early game tech trading, it also also prevented early close borders, which leads to war. Another side effect of this map setting is that AI's will have a stronger start than on an archipelago map. However, once they fill up their Island they taper off. So while you're more likely to miss out on early wonders, you won't fall nearly as far behind in the midgame. Another reason I like Island maps is because you can get more production from them than an archipelago map, as well as having more resources and huts. Also Island maps starts you close to rivers most of the time, which is very important. Rivers allow you to skip researching the wheel for a while, and they give you invaluable early gold. I think that without a river and a few bonus resources in your city radius that you can't win.

I thought for a while before I selected my opponents. I finally decided on Mansa Musa because he freely trades techs, and usually isn't very agressive. I feared his research abilities because of his financial trait, but he was my first choice. Next I choose Cyrus, because he's a well intentioned fool. He's fairly peaceful, is nominally willing to trade tech, and his traits sucks. My next choice was Frederick. Like Cyrus he isn't that aggressive, he will trade techs, and his traits aren't too strong (at least in the AI's hands). I had a difficult time making my last choice. I narrowed it down to Gandhi, who's very friendly and will trade techs almost as freely as Mansa; Elizabeth, another decently friendly tech trading AI; Peter, who's not as friendly, but will still usually trade techs; and Kublai, one of the more tolerable warlike leaders. He will sometimes trade tech, isn't too agressive, and has really horrible traits. I went with Peter as my first choice, Kublai as my second, Elizabeth as my third, and Gandhi as my last choice (his Industrial trait frightened me too much).

In my experience it's sometimes possible to do a CS slingshot even on deity if you're quick enough. I tried that as my opening gambit, and I failed miserably. I think that I was 18 turns away from completing it, so I went back and tried again, this time going for the pyramids. I detoured by going for polytheism first to give me some extra starting happiness, then after that I went for masonry, then bronze working. I had lots of forest in my city radius, and I chopped four forrests and used pop rushing to complete this wonder first. Next I beelined for code of laws, before going back to get the wheel animal husbandry, and sailing either before or after rushing to Civil Service. I switched to Beaurocracy. After that I headed for Philosophy for pacifism. Around that time the AI discovered me, just as I started heading for Educations. I made some trades, Peter beat me to Liberalism, but I kept on pressing towards Computers. I traded everything but computers, then I started beeling for rocketry via artillery. I researched biology, and medicine along the way for health, but otherwise I stayed focus on my goal. After discovering rocketry I started building the Apollo program, stopped trading techs, and I zoomed for Fiber Optics so I could get the Internet. I built a few spaceships parts along the way. After getting the Internet, I received quite a bit of technology, though I still had to research fusion and genetics on my own. I had a great starting location, which had some really good resources towards the end of the game. I also had lots of specalists, so I earned quite a few great leaders. The best GL was a great engineer that built the space elevator for me. I managed to beat Mansa by one part, though I might have finished earlier if the AI's hadn't of voted for UN free speech resolution. It felt quite exhilarating though when I was one turn away from victory. Check out the saves I posted in my previous responce. So even if this is only an educational win, I do think that victory is possible using settings similar to mine.

While I may have won using the easiest set of deity victory conditions, I would say that the heardest set of victory conditions would be on a pangea map, playing as Ghenghis Khan, with a number of agressive nontrading civs as your opponents.

[solo]

Wow!!! Well done, Korn!!!

I was thinking of taking a few liberties, such as picking opponents, but wanted to spend more time trying with the standard conditions first. Best for me so far that way is 7 parts completed, but I still lack the kind of start I think I really need and that should be attainable on a random map.

My path through the tech tree and strategy has been similar to what worked for you, though.

I will have to try Islands with no extra small ones and high sea level, instead of my tiny island on archipelago maps. This may give me a better starting position and also help to limit AI expansion even more.

I will wait a bit, though, before moving down to small maps and hand picking opponents, now that you've proven it's possible when doing this.

Even with your "issues", I would have to say this victory "counts" as the first one in OCC deity! Congrats on a superb game!!!

[korn469]

solo,

Thanks for the congrats! I included three saves games, the original start, the 1854 save where I knew I had a chance of winning, and one turn before I launched the spaceship. You should try out the original start, because I think you'll like it. My problem with archipelago tiny islands is that usually you won't start near a river, so you miss out on the extra commerce and +2 health. While it will take a while for the AI's to get galleys, once they have them they will spread across the map like a cancer, settling on every single little island they can find. So for the first few turns the AI plays slower than on an island map, but once they start expanding, it's going to be very difficult to keep pace with them. Also tiny archipelago islands often lack production capability. I've started off a few times with some hills and forrest, but it's usually rare. While it won't make that much of a difference early on, once the mid to late game hits, it's all over. I've found a strange quirk that when you only have a single warrior as a garrison, you can often run below the AI's enemy radar where you look powerless to peaceful civs, so they leave you alone. However, if you're weak and you start beside of tokagawa then it's lights out, start a new game.

[amicus curiae]

Very good. It is still one step closer to a standard continents map OCC launch.

I think obviously the least difficult OCC map is the one with the least land. I normally play all my regular games on a tiny map with 8 civs just to have more action and interesting tactics, and to make each city more valuable. So I am used to playing on small maps and I think another OCC advantage of these maps is that there is more war in general.

btw - 7 parts is closer than I have got solo. Very close.