Technology beelining

[DeepO]

dacole, I appreciate the nudge, but please let this part of the thread die... I'm already a bit upset to have sidetracked the CIV info in here, no need to take it further...

DeepO

[dacole]

hm, skipping masonry

By this I mean that sometimes you don't research a tech: not researching masonry will not make monotheism available. Good, you don't want to lose a prophet on that.
- By the time you reach 200 GPP, you should have everything ready. Discover philosophy for free.

Is getting philosophy worth skipping masonry for this..? Might it not be better to research it then just research monotheism and theology (though that adds a lot of extra techs hmm...and I raley actually research theo that early..) being unable to build the pryamids and the great lighthouse and more impportantly city walls though seems like it would be to much of a loss. How has this worked in your games? What victory type did you end up going for and how early?

[Arrian]

- By the time you reach 200 GPP, you should have everything ready. Discover philosophy for free. Is getting philosophy worth skipping masonry for this..?

Oh, so THAT's how I managed that. I remember getting Philo from a prophet once, and I was very pleased with that development at the time.

Avoiding Masonry for a little while isn't too bad *if* you don't have any stone or marble (and do not intend to build the pyramids - which, without stone, would be hard anyway). Philosophy is a solid tech: founds Taoism, provides Pacifism. Leads to other juicy things down the road a bit, as well.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Re: hm, skipping masonry

Originally posted by dacole

By this I mean that sometimes you don't research a tech: not researching masonry will not make monotheism available. Good, you don't want to lose a prophet on that.
- By the time you reach 200 GPP, you should have everything ready. Discover philosophy for free.

Is getting philosophy worth skipping masonry for this..? Might it not be better to research it then just research monotheism and theology (though that adds a lot of extra techs hmm...and I raley actually research theo that early..) being unable to build the pryamids and the great lighthouse and more impportantly city walls though seems like it would be to much of a loss. How has this worked in your games? What victory type did you end up going for and how early?

Victories are largely irrelevant to me, I'm afraid. I've got too little time, and too many games to play, as a result I've so far only seen 1 victory movie. I've ended a few games before v100, but only the final patch has movies in place. The past 2 months, I always stop the game when I know I'll win... losses are still played out, but not wins. I'd like to, though, but can't... the price to pay for being a tester.

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Where I used this? Well, it can be very useful on a pure tech beeline. You need philosophy for liberalism... and normally, nobody wants to trade it easily.

Let's give an example of a game. I haven't played this in full yet, but have played all parts of it numereous times. I want to try to get it on emperor, this 'perfect beeline', but so far have been unlucky... emperor is hard on the CS-beeline.

Stage 1: CS beeline, as discussed above.

Build 1 city before the Oracle completes, perferably on high-food with forests nearby. This should become your your commerce center later, for the moment you'll need units from the city for protection.

Try to go by an early religion if possible. Even on emperor, Buddhism and Hinduism are not impossible to get, but it heavily depends on situation.

Your capital should have 2 scientists running towards an academy, so that's your first GP.

Stage 2: Bronze working and Alphabet

With the discovery of CoL, Confucianism gets founded in City #2. Start a temple asap, unless you can build the Oracle in here. Chop whatever you can if necessary, the Oracle is

After CS, straight to Alphabet. Depending on situation, you need to go for Bronzeworking before Alphabet, before Priesthood possibly.

Your capital is your growth city from now on: it starts to catch up in settlers: you will be behind in growth right now. Or, alternatively, you start on churning out units to take some territory by force. If so, archers (and barracks) first, possibly spears and chariots if your CS beeline went through those techs.

City #2 becomes your Great Prophet city. It has at least 1 temple it can build, possibly 2. Perhaps the Oracle is in here too. It needs all the GPrP it can get asap. You can also build a lib, and start running a few scientists, as long as your chances don't drop below e.g. 80%... a Prophet is crucial.

Stage 3: Towards Philosophy
With Alphabet, you're likely to catch up completely in tech, even on higher levels. Don't trade alphabet itself, but even civil service is up for trade for all I care. Don't trade for Monarchy just yet, but research the prereq for Philo: Meditation.

For this to work, you can't have Masonry, but need both Meditation and Polytheism (so both Buddhism and Hiduism). Depending on your beeline, this can be quite a few techs: if you went the pottery or AH path towards CS, you don't have any of the religious techs yet. But trade what you can.

Stage 4: Education
While waiting for the GPr to complete, research your way towards Education. If you can, try to keep the CS off the table: AIs will thus direct more research into stuff like drama, theology, consuction... you can catch these up in one big sweep if you can hold long enough on trading CS away. Also, hesitate with trading Paper, you want to monopolyze this path.

Beeline for education, meanwhile expand your empire, and keep on stacking GPrP in city #2.

Stage 5: Philo completes

Once you get Philosophy, you should have a clear path towards Liberalism.

BTW, Philosophy gives you Angkor Wat: you get there first most likely, you can also build the wonder first. In city #2... more priests! There is also a good chance Taoism gets founded in City #2: because there has been a decent amount of time between settling #2 and #3 & #4, it is likely to be a lot bigger. If it attracks 2 or 3 religions, you have 2 or 3 shrines, and the priests to build all the GPr needed.

Angkor Wat is perfect in this strategy: More focus on priests --> more prophets --> more money. Meanwhile, what you lose in production you make up using the priests, so all you need is decent (not even great) food. 2 seafood near a possible second city is a clear invitation to try this strategy on.


Once you've got Philo and Education, start on Liberalism. Do not end research, though, stop 1 turn short. Start on the next stage if you reach this.


Stage 6: Beeline for Steel
Now this part is optional, but in many games doable, especially if so far everything went as expected.

If you are 1 turn of discovering Liberalism (which so far is doable at all levels up to Emperor, maybe even higher up), assess your situation. If you have delayed the AI down the Education path long enough, they might not even have it yet. Do not trade it to them: as long as they don't have education, they can't beat you to Liberalism anyway.

Instead, go for a path you like. I lately came to love the cannon beeline next: to Steel. Others, like e.g. a democracy beeline, or a Mil Trad beeline are certainly also options. Astronomy () can be very good too.

But I prefer Steel... so gunpowder first, Engineering next. Sometimes, you can trade for Engineering, but I found it uncommon... better do it yourself.

Now, you should be watching the trade table, and if Education gets discovered you might want to use that one turn of research left on Liberalism to be sure. After Education, AIs will go straigth for Liberalism in many cases (not all, but many). Don't risk too much here... if not sure, just use the free tech on Chemistry

If the AIs don't have education yet, continue towards Chemistry. In most games I was able to get it if aiming for it and focusing enough. Then, one turn of research, discover Liberalism, and take Steel.

Without Rifling, this will mean City Raider II on both new cannons and grenadiers (from the leftover promotion of freshly build macemen or pike upgrades), which will be more then enough to overrun anyone in your path. The best your up against is musketmen, catapults, and knights.

If this strategy so far has kept you relatively peaceful, carefully building up a smallish empire, being friendly to everyone so you can trade techs, Early steel blows the lid off for good. I've yet to see the game where this didn't let me conquer 2 AIs bigger and stronger than myself.

Stage 7: and beyond...

After Steel, the tech path is wide open. With the new rules, I can only suggest trying a Medicine beeline: Environmentalism is extremely powerful if used well. But Mil Trad, Radio, or Fusion can all work.

I'd advise against going for rifling too soon, though, you might give up your advantage using the city raider II (or III from Westpoint) grenadiers. Once Rifling is discovered, there is no further possibility to build new slowmoving city raiders anymore, all you can do is upgrade existing units. But if taking 1 or 2 AIs has given you enough room for SS, you might want to keep doing a research intensive beeline towards the space techs.

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All of these stages have been tried, and the AU 101 game I even did more then this: I went for Steel nearly (completely?) passing Mil Trad (that was Monarch though, even Monarch-lite). I should have focused even more... but already this ended me comfortably in the lead. I never reached tanks nor artillery in that game, domination from a builder start somewhere in the 1860's or so.

The end game was much slowed down because I refused to trade, and even let the AIs pass me in tech. I should have taken that to the extreme: as a FIN leader, I could have used pure cash to build up my army of slowmovers: now I built macemen and upgrade those, as I didn't want to lose the tech. That was the second reason why that was no 1700's domination victory. The first being the lack of focus when going to steel.

I still have plans to write down that part of the AU game... but so much to do, so little time

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Stage 2

Typically the Oracle finishes around the time of the barb attacks - perhaps a bit before. I usually have to dash straight for Archery here, Alphabet has to wait. It would probably be the exception rather than the rule that both AH had been researched and Horses are available.

Seeing as city #2 first has the job of building units, it won't be getting a temple to start GPrP production for some time - unless the Oracle was built there. If it uses a Priest, and the first GP was a GSci for the Academy, that's 200/3=67 turns for its first one (normal game speed, non-PHI). If the capital built the Oracle, it'll pop a prophet 100 turns after the Oracle with no other GPPs. This might even beat the one in the Holy City, but the Shrine really kicks off Prophet production, with its priest-running capacity.

I'm not sure about adding a running scientists to speed up a prophet. If it misses, Gt Sci's are always nice, but if that first prophet for the shrine is missed, then what? A looong delay, or maybe no prophets ever if there are other wonders in the Oracle city - unless you build Ankgor Wat.

Delay the shrine by 100 turns and you delay the whole Shrinegeld + Prophet Factory for some serious turn disadvantage.

Stage 3

I didn't understand this bit. Why hold away from Monarchy?

Stage 5

I've never had new religion get founded in city #2 if other cities are available. Multiple shrines running about ten priests sounds great fun, but is surely very unlikely.

Stage 6

I don't understand how not having Rifling gives City Raider II Cannons & Grenadiers. Is this all assuming Vasselage + Theocracy for 8XP veteran units? What has Rifling got to do with it?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Stage 2

Typically the Oracle finishes around the time of the barb attacks - perhaps a bit before. I usually have to dash straight for Archery here, Alphabet has to wait. It would probably be the exception rather than the rule that both AH had been researched and Horses are available.

Seeing as city #2 first has the job of building units, it won't be getting a temple to start GPrP production for some time - unless the Oracle was built there. If it uses a Priest, and the first GP was a GSci for the Academy, that's 200/3=67 turns for its first one (normal game speed, non-PHI). If the capital built the Oracle, it'll pop a prophet 100 turns after the Oracle with no other GPPs. This might even beat the one in the Holy City, but the Shrine really kicks off Prophet production, with its priest-running capacity.

Using city #2 is only one way of getting a GPr, but so far I found it to be fastest: either build the Oracle, or start on a temple asap... it can start using a priests before your GS finishes in the capital. True, with only one temple you'll need 67 turns, but te first 33 of those turns can come before your GS completes.

The key here, is that if I try this, I will probably not build a barracks in city #2, only units and possibly a settler. A barracks is worth 3 warriors, more or less, and 3 warriors will gain those 4 XP pretty fast in this stage of the game.

Stage 3

I didn't understand this bit. Why hold away from Monarchy?

typo, should have been masonry. Monarchy comes after Masonry, and sometimes is worth it to divert from the beeline.

In general, though, there are always sidesteps. These 7 stages only outline the goals, how you get there is depending on style and circumstances.

Stage 5

I've never had new religion get founded in city #2 if other cities are available. Multiple shrines running about ten priests sounds great fun, but is surely very unlikely.

True, 10 priests is a bit much. But 5 before biology is possible... however I'm more aiming at 3-4 priests n an average game, before biology. You don't need to take this to the extreme to get good results. With 2 certain, and possibly 3 or 4 religions (more prophets might give you a shot at either theology or divine right, even if it is far off the rest of the path), shrines are very important. superpriests are also very nice to have.

Stage 6

I don't understand how not having Rifling gives City Raider II Cannons & Grenadiers. Is this all assuming Vasselage + Theocracy for 8XP veteran units? What has Rifling got to do with it? [/QUOTE]

First off, you need to run either Vassalage or Theocracy. 8XP is not of much use, but you need 6 XP from the start.

The whole key to city raider on grenadiers is that you need an obsolete unit, upgradeable to grenadiers, and capable of getting city raider promotions. Normally, these will be pikes or macemen, but swords or warriors even could also occur when you don't have iron or copper. The fun thing about the CIV upgrade system is that you can upgrade obsoletes in the turn you build them, thus savng hammers (at the expense of gold), and transferring promotions.

Pikes, macemen, and other melee units can't be built anymore once rifling is discovered: riflemen will take their place. Rifles can get the city raider promotion too, but grenadiers are better raiders: the best units defending cities will be rifles and grenadiers. Attacking these with rifles is relatively bloody.

So, by avoiding rifling, you can upgrade e.g. pikes to city raider II grenadiers, and you can keep on doing that... it's not like in Civ 3 that the moment you can build a new unit, the previous, obsolete one can't be built anymore.

There are more of these sweet spots where both an obsolete and a modern unit can be built side by side, but it's the only time where the advantage of upgrading is so clear. In other cases, it is mostly a good way of transferring gold to hammers fast, to get that quick boost you need before the others have caught up in tech.

DeepO