Moving Cannon from Steel to Gunpowder

[MattPilot]

I suppose you are right fried - you do have more experience with the game than me, afterall


Lets consider the following:


Would it be possible to allow Cannons at Gunpowder with a strength of 8, then give them a free upgrade at military tradition to 12.

This would simulate that cannons learned better tactics thus are more effective.

The benefit is you can't "rush" to both techs (gunpowder & military tradition) at the same time, because they are both on the opposite side of the tech tree.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Heh. I've heard that idea before. It didn't happen, but I liked it.

[Jamski]

Trebuchets ftw then.

[MattPilot]

Q:

How easy or hard is it to mod it as to where "cannons" get a +50% strength modifier with the discovery of a tech?


Fried - is there already a precedent in the game where something similar is happeneing so i can just copy & paste the xml code?

[Fried-Psitalon]

Matt- modding is very much not my strong point, but based on my knowledge of the game, I don't believe there exists a unit strength modifier at a technology anywhere. There IS an increase to worker speed (50%) at Steam Power, however. You might try there.

[Mayfield]

Cannons belong at Gunpowder.. armies with Musketmen did have cannons historically. If you are worried about balance issues, hit the cannon with the nerf stick.

[Solver]

You could mod that in via Python. Essentially, you would create two different units in the XML - a Gunpowder Cannon and an upgraded cannon. And, you would need Python code to automatically change all cannons into their upgraded versions as you discover Military Tradition.

[MattPilot]

I got the ultimate solution.

It should cover all bases and all fears raised of it being to strong.


Put the Cannon at gunpowder with a strength of 8. Give it a 50% attack bonus versus all gunpowder units.

This way you don't have to worry about a to powerfull cannon killing your backwards nation longbow, but is still strong enough to be a factor in the gunpowder age.



What do you all think?

The good thing about this is,that it is a 1 minute mod.

[LDiCesare]

Why can't you move cannons to gunpowder and lower their specs?
Historically, cannons have been used before muskets. They also changed warfare, both siege and on open battlefields (1515 Marignan). They were made of bronze, and cannonballs too. They later allowed the creation of frigates and revolutionised sea warfare. I don't have the game yet, so don't know whether trebuchets should be in, but cannons should be the first gunpowder unit, and a better cannon could be available with the advent of steel or chemistry techs.
MattPilot's proposal, that cannons get better when a tech (or techs) get discovered looks like a good idea too (but I'm biased here).

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by MattPilot
I got the ultimate solution.

It should cover all bases and all fears raised of it being to strong.


Put the Cannon at gunpowder with a strength of 8. Give it a 50% attack bonus versus all gunpowder units.

This way you don't have to worry about a to powerfull cannon killing your backwards nation longbow, but is still strong enough to be a factor in the gunpowder age.



What do you all think?

The good thing about this is,that it is a 1 minute mod.

Just noticed that there is one aspect that is affected. Cavalry. They are classed as mounted, not gunpowder units. So the +50% bonus would not affect them.

However, in my personal opinion, i think thats a good thing because cavalry should be a natural cannon killer.

Opinions again please.



***EDIT ..... i just noticed cavalry has a natural +50% combat bonus against cannons. I guess if you take that away, it all balances itself out again.

[Matches10]

I think this sounds like the winning combination. I don't remember offhand but if Cavalry's base strength is 12 then you maintain the 1.5 ratio of advantage (Cavalry versus Cannon)

Goes from 12 x 0.5 = 18 for cavalry versus 12 for cannon...

To 12 for cavalry versus 8 for cannon.

But this little mod does seem to accomplish what we want: establishing a cannon earlier in the game that does not quite overpower somewhat older units by too much. At the same time as the game develops and gunpowder units come into play, the cannons get stronger.

I'd say it's not ideal because there's the quirk of the same actual cannon unit getting stronger and weaker depending on what unit it's facing in a given turn but since adding the trebuchet (or an "early cannon") unit is a bit more involved, it sounds like this a nice easy fix for now, no?

[Fried-Psitalon]

Take care lowering the cavalry or you change the effectiveness equation in relation to Pikes/Rifles as well.

[Mayfield]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
Take care lowering the cavalry or you change the effectiveness equation in relation to Pikes/Rifles as well.

If you just take away the bonus against cannons, it will do nothing to their effectiveness to Pikes/rifles/spearmen

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by Mayfield


If you just take away the bonus against cannons, it will do nothing to their effectiveness to Pikes/rifles/spearmen

Correct. The change would only affect the cannon.

Btw.. the cavalry, and the unique unit cossacks that replace cav for the russians, have a base strength of 15.

So cavalry vs cannon would be 15 vs 8 (1.875) instead of 22.5 vs 12 (1.875). So still same ratio.

And since both units aren't allowed to have defense modifiers, nothing changes.



So fried, what do you think of such a setup? I'm asking you because you are the one with the most experience balancing the game, or so i am told

I'd say it's not ideal because there's the quirk of the same actual cannon unit getting stronger and weaker depending on what unit it's facing in a given turn but since adding the trebuchet (or an "early cannon") unit is a bit more involved, it sounds like this a nice easy fix for now, no?

I suppose the arguement could be made that when a cannon shoots at another gunpowder unit, its more likely to explode the gunpowder based weapons (black powder, whatever), which would not be the case with a melee unit.

[ktbutts]

The trebuchet idea is great, but I would attach it to machinery rather than engineering.