Moving Cannon from Steel to Gunpowder

[MattPilot]

Someone else has already raised the suggestion to move the cannons up on the tech tree because they have such a short life span, while the catapult is around almost half the game.


Currently Cannons are under the tech steel, which is a direct requirement for the tech that gives you artillery. The tech Steel is itself a very expensive tech and will probably not be one of the first ones to be researched, further decreasing the "cannon" life span.

Moving Cannons up 2 techs to Gunpowder would greatly improve its lifespan. Gunpowder in itself is a desirable tech because if gives a good defensive unit that most would want. So it will be researched early.

It's also a bit silly to have riflemen, but still using catapults.

For arguements sake - some might say you can't have cannons without Steel, because thats what they are made out of. Well, look at the Tech that is a requirement for Steel - It lets you build frigates. I'd say frigates have cannons on them made without steel


With that being said, i've already changed it in my mod and it plays quite nicely.


over

[Solver]

I'd prefer to have a middle-age siege unit, the Trebuchet modded in. It could have a Strength of 8 and be available with Engineering. That would also do away ith the Catapults being around forever.

Cannons at Gunpowder are quite strong, BTW. Since they have a strength of 12, you can have a lot of success attacking cities directly if they're Longbowmen-defended.

[MattPilot]

Interesting points. I hadn't considered adding another unit to fill the gap.

I also concur with the point that cannons are very powerful against longbow defenders. But then the point could also be made that catapults are weak attackers against riflemen defenders.


On another note, longbow men are good defenders in general, but against siege weapons one should have a mounted unit (+25 siege) garrisoned in a city. The Knight or cavalry could be a good adversary for a cannon, no?

[Jamski]

Well historically Cannon ended the era of the medieval fortified city or castle... its became much easier to attack cities and towns formerly considered impregnable. The science of fortification would require almost 150 years before the advantage laid as strongly with the defender as it did in the age of knights and castles.

From a game point of view, earlier cannons would "break" the early medieval stalemate where is is rather difficult, if not impossible to fight a war of aggression. I feel that attackers should be encouraged whenever possible to keep the game more fluid and exciting. Trench warfare gets awfully dull.

[Solver]

Cannons at Gunpowder vs. Longbows wouldn't be support weapons anymore, that's my point. You could bombard defenses down with those Cannons, and then attack the city with the Cannons themselves too for good results, especially if you earlier take the City Raider promotion.

It's not a huge problem neccessarily, but I feel Cannons are more appropriate for the age of Riflemen and Cavalry - adding a new unit would probably be best. The problem is, of course, that it needs graphics.

[Jamski]

Perhaps a Strength 8 short cannon at Gunpowder then? Call it a "Bombard" or a "Serpent" or something. And then a proper long cannon for the rifle/cav age. Its just a long way from catapult to cannon, and cats don't cut it vs rifles - hell they hardly cut it vs longbows!

[notyoueither]

I agree, Matt. Cannons belong at GP.

For arguements sake - some might say you can't have cannons without Steel, because thats what they are made out of. Well, look at the Tech that is a requirement for Steel - It lets you build frigates. I'd say frigates have cannons on them made without steel .

Why would you argue that?

Cannon were made of cast-iron, wrought-iron and sometimes bronze (IIRC). Steel was a major enabler of artillery, not cannons.

[Solver]

Trebuchet at Engineering or a Culverin at Gunpowder sound like very good ideas to me.

[NickF]

"For arguements sake - some might say you can't have cannons without Steel, because thats what they are made out of"

But they weren't made of steel, early cannon were made from bronze and then iron (not steel, big difference).

[MattPilot]

"For arguements sake - some might say you can't have cannons without Steel, because thats what they are made out of"

I was just role-playing a potential naysayer..

[Sartaq]

Originally posted by NickF
"For arguements sake - some might say you can't have cannons without Steel, because thats what they are made out of"

But they weren't made of steel, early cannon were made from bronze and then iron (not steel, big difference).

Yep. Cannons were basically the death knell for castles/walls etc... almost as soon as they were used. That should be reflected in the game. The mid/late medieval period should be a good time for plenty of offensive wars. It's right when the world is feeling the huge affects of gunpowder coming into it's own and the obsoletion of en masse hand-to-hand combat.

[MattPilot]

This brings up another question...

Walls/Castles get ignored by "gun-powder based weapons".

Now here's my question. Does that mean only those units who have a "gunpowder" designation get this bonus or all units, including "cannons" which are actually designated as "siege" and not "Gunpowder".

If Walls/Castles are still useful against all "siege" weapons, then i can understand why i can still build them in the modern age. But if "siege" weapons based on gunpowder (cannon, artillery) also get this bonus, why the hell is the wall & the castle still cluttering the build menu after the gunpowder age?

[notyoueither]

I believe cannon still have to contend with the walls, they just tear them and the culture bonus down really quickly when bombarding.

[Sava]

I think they should upgrade the Catapult into something for the middle ages, like the Trebuchet like Solver suggested.

But then for Gunpowder, add a bronze cannon unit or something. Steel just seems too late for that kind of weapon.

Also, they need to do like a WW1 arty unit, then a modern one... because the one now is too weak for modern era IMO

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I believe cannon still have to contend with the walls, they just tear them and the culture bonus down really quickly when bombarding.

Just curious.... did a Bombardment ever destroy city walls or castles?

I recall the manual saying bombardment only affects culture defense and not improvements or units in the city.