Why Civ IV is doomed to be a hit? (the very smart move by Firaxis PR)

[Willem]

Originally posted by MarkG
Radeon 7500 does have T&L support

and yes, Locutus should be more sensitive with non T&L chips

Yes, and he has managed to get it working. Sort of... That's what he's not happy about.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It seems you have problems reading, since I haven't written that you are a "yes man". You were a beta tester and I predict that because of that you are not impartial to the game. Solver said he isn't. You say you are? OK with me, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I will hold my opinion. BTW., you should note two things:

1) I am careful not to make claims I can't substantiate. I have made not a single one so far.

2) My suggestion about custom titles was made in passing and I am not pushing for it or anything.

I really don't see what I should discuss with you. I don't think you are objective, you think you are. We agree to disagree. OK, carry on.

What issues have you found from your own observation with the game?

[VetLegion]

None.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by VetLegion
None.

nice work, btw

[Beta]

Check here...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141658

Or do you figure that all the voters were beta testers???

Despite my name, I was not, and I am truly a hard sell on a new game.

Quit looking for conspiracies, and play the game.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Vet, I'll tell you this very bluntly - if I didn't like the game, I'd say so. I don't mince words, and Firaxis knew exactly what I thought every time I thought there was a problem. I can't help it if they listened and changed things when I complained. To me, CIV is an excellent game. If it wasn't, I'd say so. I even mention in my articles how sad I think the state of C3C is; pathetic is polite.

Yes-man I am not; CIV genuinely rocks, and I'd be the first to speak up if it didn't. It's also a mistake, by the way, to assume that speaking against Firaxis is jepoardizing your position. True story: When I started, I was nervous about criticizing things - they actually asked me to be harsher and more direct. They don't want "Yes-men," because Yes-men are going to tell them what's good. They want to know what's BAD, so they can fix it.

Conspiracy plot, indeed!

[PLATO]

Yes...an excellent thread. I am glad that this issue is being dealt with. I was very happy to see the people on the beta test team that are there. The ones I know are all solid Civvers.

This is a good place for us all to say a thank you to them for the uncounted hours they have put into the development of this game...and the uncounted hours they will doubtless spend answering our questions.

Thanks!

[Willem]

Originally posted by PLATO

This is a good place for us all to say a thank you to them for the uncounted hours they have put into the development of this game...

Yeah, like someone really had to twist their arms.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Willem


Yeah, like someone really had to twist their arms.

Hehe...indeed.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It seems you have problems reading, since I haven't written that you are a "yes man".

"Yes man" is my own term I used to sum up your train of thought about beta testers in this thread. It is just easier to type out than "beta tester who Firaxis brought on to preempt any dissention from" or use an actual quote from you. We can use any other label if you would prefer. The point was, when you identified my post as an example of your theory in the OP here, it was insulting to me. Thus my statement "Your insinuation that I am now a "yes man" for Firaxis is rather insulting though." But that is beside the point. It was a simple statement of how I felt, which is certainly not a good topic for arguing either way.

You were a beta tester and I predict that because of that you are not impartial to the game.

You "predicted", at least as well as you can "predict" things that will happen after release, days after release has already come and gone, that beta testers wouldn't be impartial to the game. You made that "prediction" in this thread. Your OP here is not the issue I have been discussing with you.

In the other thread, where our own discussion began, you made another post, which is what we are discussing now. It has ties to your OP here, but is not the same issue. You said my response in the other thread was, "exactly what I am talking about". Meaning that you were trying to use my response as evidence. The issue is whether or not your analysis of that specific post is correct, not if beta testers in general, or even myself, will be less objective because they have been part of the beta test.

I responded by asking you questions, which if answered would help lead to determining whether or not your use of my response would be applicable in the manner you were infering. You have completely avoided answering those questions, trying misdirection each time they are brought up.

Do you have an answer to those questions or not?

You say you are?

Since you seem to be asking a question here (humor me if it's meant to be rhetorical), my personal opinion is no one can ever truely be objective. Everything is subjective. Serving as a beta tester would likely modify the objectivity of anyone involved (at least slightly), but not necessarily in a positive manner.

Much of the most vocal outrage I've ever seen in regards to a game was from beta testers.

1) I am careful not to make claims I can't substantiate. I have made not a single one so far.

Well, for one (and two), there are two claims you've just made in those two sentences. We shall see if either or both of these are substantiated.*

You said my post was exactly what you were talking about. That is also a claim. You have not substantiated that claim by offering any evidence that my being a beta tester was the reason for my making that specific reply. In fact, you have repeatedly ducked any discussion along those lines. You may have been "careful", but it seems you have still ended up making an unsubstantiated claim.

2) My suggestion about custom titles was made in passing and I am not pushing for it or anything.

Completely irrellevent. Why do you bring it up? (I'd leave Poly for good if my title was changed from orangesoda. )

I really don't see what I should discuss with you.

That is becoming rather obvious.

I don't think you are objective, you think you are.

"You think you are" is also a claim. Please back that up. Quote me claiming to be objective on this issue. (Hell, any issue...) Again, perhaps you were being "careful" here. But it seems even that wasn't enough to keep you from making another unsubstantiated claim.

We agree to disagree. OK, carry on.

You may if you wish.

This is another unsupported claim you are making. I very rarely agree to disagree. I certainly have not in this case.

And I'll carry on when it suits me. Both are issues you have no say in whatsoever.

------------------

*I can not substantiate or disprove whether or not you were careful in making any of these claims, as you've claimed. That is something only you can know. Though it does seem you were not "careful" enough to avoid making unsubstantiated claims.

On a high note though, you have substantiated your claim that you have not made a "single" unsubstantiated claim. To my recollection, you have made four in our discussion so far.

[MrFun]

Re: Why Civ IV is doomed to be a hit? (the very smart move by Firaxis PR)

Originally posted by VetLegion


Since most people that don't buy on whim or word of mouth buy judging from printed magazine and big mainstream site reviews, and since those reviewers always check what the communities are thinking about the games they review -- is Civ IV doomed to be a hit, even if without merit?

I myself have not yet bought Civ 4 -- I'm waiting for most problems to be fixed that Firaxis failed to resolve initially.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Willem

Yeah, like someone really had to twist their arms.

Like rubber, dude.

[alva]

Originally posted by Blackship


But, if you are part of the develpment process, and you have input as to the product you'll be reluctant to post negatively about the product...right? There is the smell of conflict of interest, whether or not there is one, especially as there are so many CIV players that could have been selected that don't run websites.

You see what I mean?

You could look at it the other way around too.
How many people buy a game and then play it for say, more than six months...not that many.
So if someones tests it for so long, then surely that must be an indication - nothing more - that at the very least it doesn't 'Teh SUck'.
I know I wouldn't be spending/wasting my time if I hated it...and I doubt many others would.
If at any point it would have started to feel like work, I would have stopped. I'm not going to "work" for free, not for anyone. Funnily enough it never did.

It's not as if Soren had a gun against our heads...well, most of the time he didn't anyway.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Why Civ IV is doomed to be a hit? (the very smart move by Firaxis PR)

Has the community been quietly pacified by Firaxis?

Firaxis PR had absolutely nothing to do with creating the Play Session. That was all Jesse and Soren.

More info about the Session will be coming out in the new Poly interview series.


- Sirian

[Blackship]

A story:

Restaurant reviewer with his own newspaper column is asked by local restaurant chain, which the reviewer has frequented in the past, asks said reviewer to help in the development of a new menu for their next theme resaturant. Interestingly, the reviewer notices that all his colleagues too have joined in this endeavour...the gangs all here! Notices a few local chefs in the group...wonders why more aren't involved (or maybe doesn't), but c'est la vie.

It's a labour of love. Reviewer feels a part of something special. His input appears to matter Feels good about the process, always gets out of it what he feels he should. Everyone's going to love this!

Opening day! Great rejoicing all around, great reviews by the reviewing community...it's a great place! But, not everyone has the same experience as the gang of reviewers and chefs that were invited to fashion this gastronomic masterpiece. Some get menus printed in a foreign language, oh well. Some have entrees that say filet mignon, but when they go to eat it find the entree to be Philly cheesesteak. Scattered about the restaurant are patrons that can't get the full flavor of the meal...you see their tastebuds aren't up to the prescribed level of sophistication. They keep gagging their meal without notice, their bowels bog down, some see spots, others see blue before their eyes and have to reset themselves before continuing. The restaurant staff remains silent when these patrons ask "is this what it's supposed to taste like"? Other patrons in the restaurant dine with bemusement at the distress of those "others".

The reviewers can't understand it. Their experience is all they can go by, they post the reviews as they see them. However, many of their readers wonder about objectivity. Wonders why some patrons aren't "getting it" when every paper in town is raving?

Someone dares to ask..."why were all the restaurant reviewers in the development group"? Is that really the way it's supposed to be done? Isn't that like shooting fish in a barrel?

End story.

BTW, I'm enjoying the game, between CTDs, and thank all those that helped make the game what it is.