Why Civ IV is doomed to be a hit? (the very smart move by Firaxis PR)

[hexagonian]

I've been asking some of the AOMers to do that very thing (play it at the highest level), since they all play AOM at the highest level. I think it is the only truly fair comparison when looking at the two games.

And maybe they could post the saved gamefile here to put the debate to rest once and for all.

So far, its been very silent from that camp. A lot of Monarch gameplay, but nothing beyond that.

Perhaps the patch will spark some more interest if it does fix the sluggish gameplay.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by smithldoo
Us warriors from AOM broke civ 4 in no time, it is hugely unrealistic, toooooooo easy to make war and practically no meaningful penalties and big advantages (plunder, resources) for making war.

If "Civ IV is doomed to be a hit" it is only because of the inane ineptness of the too many gameplayers.

Nothing says winner like a guy who boasts about his gaming skills

Originally posted by smithldoo
When I consider either gameplay or technical issues, it is the worst out of a box game I have paid for. Put them together and you have a new definition for rubbish.

Either you are pirating games or you just don't get out much then. Tiberian Sun anyone? Probably my most disappointing purchase in a game. MoO3? Sheesh.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by MarkG
you've got be kidding me
first show me someone that had his computer hacked due to the issue in the python dll's and then i'll post a news item about it

Hey, the whole point of making a news item is prevention.

and "patch release botched".

wrong media

I LOVE it

[aerocabin]

smithldoo's experience is exactly that of my own.

Civ4 held my attention for around one week, then it became apparent that I was pretty much just world building, it was very easy to play the game safely and always get ahead of the AI. I played Civ1 as my primary game for over a year, same for Civ2, Civ3 lasted 3-4 months, but Civ4 has only been good for 1 week.

Once you learn to play the game, there are no ups or downs. If you start off well, you will finish well. If you start off badly, you will end badly.

I don't care about higher difficulty levels, or handicapping. This is a simulation, like every other game, it should be an even playing field from the start. Imagine playing Chess where the AI gets a bunch of extra playing pieces at the beginning, and some other extra pieces later on in the game.

I can forgive handicapping in the first version of Civ where it was released on a 386, but this is a different age, computers have alot more processing power, maybe they should focus the power on AI instead of graphics. How about modular AI, leave it up to the modders to make the best AI (forgive me if this is possible in this version, I have not looked into the modding-aspects of Civ4).

There are tons of "Ups" in Civ4, ever notice how there are no negative events in this game? Revolutions have nearly no effect, there are no serious negative attributes to the Civics, natural disasters are missing, corruption is gone (just because it was poorly simulated in past versions doesn't mean it should be removed completely). Why are the "Downs" or declines that occur to real-life Civilizations completely ignored in this simulation? Why is there a Golden Age, but no Dark Age? Where is terrorism and what happened to spying? Why can't I poison a river, assassinate another player, raze a city, genocide a people, cause a city to revolt or a nation to split into two, cause a riot, burn a forest, create a rift in relations, hire mercenaries/barbarians to raid, bribe foreign forces to switch sides? This is Civilization, bad things happen too.

Civ4's system requirements are ridiculous, it infuriates me that they chose to alienate the poorer gamers. I can't imagine that Civ4 stripped of graphics would be a processor-intensive game, I wouldn't be surprised if a stripped down version that retained all the rules could be made for Nintendo DS (maybe with limited map size as one of the only limitations). But that's exactly where I have to find my exile, on the DS in Advance Wars, the only TBS worth my time at the moment. These games have alot in common, but only Advance Wars is a fair simulation where both the AI and the human players play by the same rules.

[Rommel2D]

Not to condemn you, but player modding of the AI has been a highly touted feature, with the toolkit for this promised in the next few months (presumably for free). This and alot of the subject matter you mention are discussed in the game manual (this is the first time I've found a Civ manual worth reading) in the last two sections of 'Advanced Rules'- 'Mods' and 'Afterwords'.

As for your genocidal wish fulfilment, now that TakeTwo has bought Firaxis, don't be surprised if an expansion makes the game into just such a 'sandbox' environment. And don't forget the power of gender oppression.

Then again, maybe they'll continue to see a distinction between game and simulation...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by aerocabin

I don't care about higher difficulty levels, or handicapping. This is a simulation, like every other game, it should be an even playing field from the start. Imagine playing Chess where the AI gets a bunch of extra playing pieces at the beginning, and some other extra pieces later on in the game.

Imagine playing Civ on an 8 by 8 map, with nothing to build - no cities, no tech, no religion or culture or trade or diplomacy or oceans or rivers, no Great People or Spaceships or UN votes, or leader traits. Imagine starting with 16 pieces with six unit types, and two terrain types - black or white tiles. Imagine only 2 civs allowed in the game, and movement of only one unit per turn.

Define Civ thus, work for 50 years on an AI, then it can give a human a good game without bonuses.

Next, imagine a human incapable of seeing the difference between Chess and Civilisation. Imagine living in such a tiny mind that you thought one was the same as the other in terms of building a top AI.

Imagine.

[aerocabin]

It might take Firaxis 50 years to program a good AI because they are inept. In 50 years, we might see a Civ version that is actually ready upon first release.

Who is the one with the tiny mind: I criticize the game, you make fun of me. Why not kindly explain why it wouldn't work instead of making yourself sound like an a$$.

[asleepathewheel]

[Rommel2D]

Apart from the extra thick helping of sarcasm, the point stands. Chess AI is possible because any given turn has a mathamatically certain number of game states and a computer can calculate those possibilities out a great number of turns in advance. The number of game states possible in any given turn of Civ is astronomically beyond the possibilites of an entire game of chess. Designing an AI to outthink a human in a historical simulator makes as much sense as building a life-sized globe...

[aerocabin]

I'm not talking about AI that can beat the best Civ player in every case. I'm talking about ditching handicapping, and forcing the programmers to make AI that isn't predictable or stagnant.

[asleepathewheel]

how much are you willing to pay for that?

I don't think prices have dropped all that much since deep blue in 96.

[smithldoo]

There are tons of "Ups" in Civ4, ever notice how there are no negative events in this game? Revolutions have nearly no effect, there are no serious negative attributes to the Civics, natural disasters are missing, corruption is gone (just because it was poorly simulated in past versions doesn't mean it should be removed completely). Why are the "Downs" or declines that occur to real-life Civilizations completely ignored in this simulation? Why is there a Golden Age, but no Dark Age? Where is terrorism and what happened to spying? Why can't I poison a river, assassinate another player, raze a city, genocide a people, cause a city to revolt or a nation to split into two, cause a riot, burn a forest, create a rift in relations, hire mercenaries/barbarians to raid, bribe foreign forces to switch sides? This is Civilization, bad things happen too.

Why not try Ages of Man (link in revolving Ad on this page periodically). It may not have everything, but it is not the mickey mouse club nice game style of the civ series. And after playing intensively for 6 months, the AI still surpirses a little. Oh, it does have ai cheats, but it also has many human balancers to make you construct a victory.

Direct link.

http://www.theagesofman.net/index.html

Is a free download from Apolyton but you need the original Ctp2 game.