Not many women...

[polarnomad]

Nobody's gonna be rewriting history through CivIV...

So do I understand correctly that many seem to think that adding more playable female leaders would somehow detract from the game? I mean is it really going to hamper your gameplay if someone wants to play Joan of Arc?

I don't understand why so many seem to have a problem with something like this...

EDIT: The only problem I can foresee as to how gameplay might be affected by adding many more leaders (female or not) is how each leader incorporates specific traits that influence game strategy. Coming up with these traits might be rather complicated.

[Dravin]

So do I understand correctly that many seem to think that adding more playable female leaders would somehow detract from the game? I mean is it really going to hamper your gameplay if someone wants to play Joan of Arc?

I think it's an issue of limited resources, if you are only going to have X amount of leaders most people want it to be people who were actually leaders which historically means a larger number of men, if you start diging up people (female or male) that don't qualify they get annoyed, me I have no problem about Joan of Arc, but as other have pointed out, just what female president are you gonna use for America?

Oh well, for me the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, I play traits not portraits.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I mean is it really going to hamper your gameplay if someone wants to play Joan of Arc?

They can mod her in . I know that she wasn't a historical leader of France, so it may irk me a bit, especially if she gets the spot over someone like Napoleon.

[Igloodude]

Originally posted by Japher
If women start playing CIV it will turn into SimCity with the whole Sims crossover/addin crap that (real) men just don't like.

That presupposes that real men play SimCity, a fact not in evidence.

[upjoa]

What this all comes down to is I'm a female player, yes a women who likes strategy games, and would like my character to be female. I just want the option. I'd think most men wouldn't want to have just 5 men to chose from. It's not about being a feminist or anything, I just enjoy playing as a women and this is a game. How hard would it be to have more woman. If the game was that "historically accurate" a bowman wouldn't take out a marine, or a spearman defend and win against a tank. So hey if we can bend the rules there why not with rulers.

Also history has had many female Rulers, such as:
Makeda, Queen of Sheba, 960 B.C. (Ethiopia), Empress Wu Zetian (Wu Chao), 625-705 (China), Queen Sondok, ruled 632-647 (Korea), Sultana Radiyya Bint Shams al-Din Iltutmish (ruled North India 1236-1240), Maria Theresa, 1717-1780 (Austria, Hungary, Bohemia), Benazir Bhutto (Pakistan), Tzu-hsi Empress of China (1835-1908), Maria da Lourdes Pintasilgo (Portugal), Empress Himiko (183 BC Japan), Sammuramat
Assyrian Queen, 9th Century B.C., Indira Gandhi Prime Minister of India: 1917-1984, Golda Meir Prime Minister of Israel: 1898-1978, Empress Irene (Byzantine Empire 763-803 C.E.), Queen Nzinga - Angola: 1583-1663, Jhansi Ki Rani (Queen of Jhansi, India, 1850s) ... Want more or is this enough?

Also several people didn't know who Susan B. Anthony was. She was the leader of the American Suffrage movement, and as an American woman I wouldn't mind having her as a ruler.

[Lensman74]

Wow. This thread explains why people look at me as if to say "you don't look like you still live in your parent's basement!" when I tell them that I play video games. Come on-this is a GAME. And although my workplace is not representative of all workplaces, I can say that there are many young (age 21-30) women at my workplace that play all types of video games, from console to PC. Anyways, this is supposed to be historically-based fun and if more women want to play Civ as women rulers, so what? As it has been stated, there are plenty of male rulers to go around without me feeling like I've been cheated, so go ahead and add more females!

And as sad as it is to say, Joan of Arc was a better leader as a general than many French rulers were while sitting on the throne. So have Napolean AND Joan of Arc.

One more thing-this game is not 100% historically accurate. I, too, am tired of pikeman being able to seriously injure my tanks, or galleys successfully defending against my destroyers. Why are these situations possible? Because it's a game and some aspects were modified for playability or other reasons. So quit trying to deny that girls don't play video games, quit making ridiculous complaints that display your lack of social skills, or go back to your parent's basement.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Lensman74
my workplace is not representative of all workplaces, I can say that there are many young (age 21-30) women at my workplace that play all types of video games, from console to PC.

Ok, so my curiosity has been piqued!

Originally posted by Lensman74
As it has been stated, there are plenty of male rulers to go around without me feeling like I've been cheated, so go ahead and add more females!

Hear, hear!

Originally posted by Lensman74
So quit trying to deny that girls don't play video games, quit making ridiculous complaints that display your lack of social skills, or go back to your parent's basement.

*Looks around for his mother's house key...*

[Imran Siddiqui]

What this all comes down to is I'm a female player, yes a women who likes strategy games, and would like my character to be female. I just want the option.

Then MOD them in! Don't make my game needlessly ahistorical because you want to play as a woman.

Or, just play as the Engish, Russians, Spanish, or Egyptians .

I'd think most men wouldn't want to have just 5 men to chose from.

I don't think most men care. I haven't heard all that much objection to having to play as a woman if you pick the English, Egyptians, or Spanish (no choice to play as a man in ANY of those civs)

Also history has had many female Rulers, such as:
Makeda, Queen of Sheba, 960 B.C. (Ethiopia), Empress Wu Zetian (Wu Chao), 625-705 (China), Queen Sondok, ruled 632-647 (Korea), Sultana Radiyya Bint Shams al-Din Iltutmish (ruled North India 1236-1240), Maria Theresa, 1717-1780 (Austria, Hungary, Bohemia), Benazir Bhutto (Pakistan), Tzu-hsi Empress of China (1835-1908), Maria da Lourdes Pintasilgo (Portugal), Empress Himiko (183 BC Japan), Sammuramat
Assyrian Queen, 9th Century B.C., Indira Gandhi Prime Minister of India: 1917-1984, Golda Meir Prime Minister of Israel: 1898-1978, Empress Irene (Byzantine Empire 763-803 C.E.), Queen Nzinga - Angola: 1583-1663, Jhansi Ki Rani (Queen of Jhansi, India, 1850s) ... Want more or is this enough?

I've highlighted the ones that actually were the head of civs IN THE GAME. The question is do you think any of the Chinese rulers are more deserving than who they have there now? I can see a definite case for Indira Gandhi, but then again, I think Nehru is more deserving (though Indira is a VERY good choice, but Firaxis decided to keep the old Gandhi.. even though I'd probably rather see Nehru or Indira represent modern India).

Also several people didn't know who Susan B. Anthony was. She was the leader of the American Suffrage movement, and as an American woman I wouldn't mind having her as a ruler.

I didn't realize being leader of a movement made you a ruler of a country! Hell, lets put Martin Luther King, Jr. in then!! And Alexander Hamilton was the leader of the movement for a US Bank (which ultimately did come to fruition, even with Jefferson and Jackson's plans against).

So have Napolean AND Joan of Arc.

Joan of Arc never led France, while Louis XIV did, and was instrumental in making France Europe's premier power. I'd take the Sun King, considering he actually ruled the civilization!

One more thing-this game is not 100% historically accurate.

There is a difference between making it historically inaccurate for gameplay's sake and making it historical inaccurate for political correctness sake.

Hell, I don't see many people campaigning to remove the female leaders in place of male ons (though some have said Churchill is more deserving than Victoria), even though there are some arguments to be made. For instance, is Catherine more deserving than Lenin? Is Hashsepsut more deserving than Menes, Amenemhat III, or Ramses II? Is Isabella more deserving than Carlos I (Carlos V of the Holy Roman Empire).

[aneeshm]

Re: Re: Not many women...

Originally posted by Shaka II


Civ is not Civ without Joan of Arc. So she wasn't Queen, but she led armies, which may be seen as more important to some players here.

Hopefully there is Cleopatra still. Also Indira Ghandi, Queen Elizabeth. There should be more gender choices.

Please don't include Indira Gandhi in that list - that woman was a horrible leader , though a good politician . She almost snuffed out Indian democracy by imposing a state of emergency , and having the entire political opposition arrested , and muzzling the press ( all pressmen disagreeing with her were arrested ) . I don't understand where this impression of her being some "great female Indian leader" comes from .

India has had many women in positions of greatness in their respective fields , but leadership was not one of those fields - at least , not rulers of the whole country ( or even a great portion thereof ) . I live in a city ( or rather , region ) which was governed by women for a long time , and which has elected a woman as its Chief Minister . We have always been a rather well-governed place , thanks to the excellent tradition of governance the women rulers have passed down . These women , however , were rulers descended from the empire of Shivaji .

Ashok is , IMO , a perfect choice . Another great ruler could be Shivaji - he set up the post-Mughal empire which was Indiawide .

As for Nehru - he failed . True , Gandhi is a misfit for a Civ-type game , but there is nobody else to represent modern India , so we have him .

[murielwasser]

Originally posted by Japher
If women start playing CIV it will turn into SimCity with the whole Sims crossover/addin crap that (real) men just don't like.

Go play Quake! Yeesh!

[TomVeil]

I don't have the game yet (package arrives Friday!), but I assume there is still the option to change the name and gender of the leader that the human is playing as. I think that's a darn good start.

I agree with the general consensus that there aren't that many historical women leaders -- even the most famous Iriquois were all men -- and that limits what the programmers can do. Adding "leaders" like Susan B. Anthony would be a joke. But they did take a serious step in the wrong direction by getting rid of Joan of Arc. How many European national leaders acheived demigod/sainthood status?

[LDiCesare]

And as sad as it is to say, Joan of Arc was a better leader as a general than many French rulers were while sitting on the throne. So have Napolean AND Joan of Arc.

To me, seeing Jeanne d'Arc as the French leader in Civ 3 always seemed weird. Both Louis XIV and Napoleon are a way better choice. Historical correctness matters somewhat. If you want female leaders, modding them in would be a good option, but how do you mod the face used in the diplomacy screen? That's 3D so you can't do it in 5 minutes as you could in Civ2.

[upjoa]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I've highlighted the ones that actually were the head of civs IN THE GAME. The question is do you think any of the Chinese rulers are more deserving than who they have there now? I can see a definite case for Indira Gandhi, but then again, I think Nehru is more deserving (though Indira is a VERY good choice, but Firaxis decided to keep the old Gandhi.. even though I'd probably rather see Nehru or Indira represent modern India).

Though not as many as men, the point is that there were/are woman rulers.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I didn't realize being leader of a movement made you a ruler of a country! Hell, lets put Martin Luther King, Jr. in then!! And Alexander Hamilton was the leader of the movement for a US Bank (which ultimately did come to fruition, even with Jefferson and Jackson's plans against).

I didn't say that Susan B. Anthony was a ruler.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Joan of Arc never led France, while Louis XIV did, and was instrumental in making France Europe's premier power. I'd take the Sun King, considering he actually ruled the civilization!).

No one said Joan of Arc ruled France.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Hell, I don't see many people campaigning to remove the female leaders in place of male ons (though some have said Churchill is more deserving than Victoria), even though there are some arguments to be made. For instance, is Catherine more deserving than Lenin? Is Hashsepsut more deserving than Menes, Amenemhat III, or Ramses II? Is Isabella more deserving than Carlos I (Carlos V of the Holy Roman Empire).

Ok, you really are missing my point. I would have rather seen Churchill in place of either Elizabeth or Victoria. Then there would have been a male and female option. I'm sure that if there were twenty five or so woman rulers listed and five or so men rulers, you would have men that were upset, too.

Also, I'd like to clarify that my reasoning for wanting more women is not to be "PC", it's to because, as a woman I want to play a woman.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Grumbold
Just to be awkward, I'd have preferred Winston Churchill to Queen Victoria for England. One Queen is enough

Agreed... I am very disappointed that Churchill is not an option for the English.

Most of history has been dominated by male leaders. Who would be the American female option? Rosa Parks? Hillary Clinton?

I think the developers have already bent over backwards to give women a fair shot at leadership in the game. Arguably, they've gone too far.

[Pyrodrew]

How many European national leaders acheived demigod/sainthood status?

Joan wasn't the only person ever to be given sainthood. Do we add all the saints and some popes?

As it has been stated, there are plenty of male rulers to go around without me feeling like I've been cheated, so go ahead and add more females!

Why is it so awful for a female gamer to mod/create their female (pseudo) ruler of choice, but not so awful for a black person to create a black leader or a Jew to create a Hebrew Civ ("aren't there plenty of gentile Civs without gentiles feeling cheated"?) or Jewish leader, etc etc?

If you want female leaders, modding them in would be a good option, but how do you mod the face used in the diplomacy screen? That's 3D so you can't do it in 5 minutes as you could in Civ2.

Why not reference another female Civ4 ruler's face? Would anyone really say, "That's Isabella, not Jeanne d'Arc!"

Wow. This thread explains why people look at me as if to say "you don't look like you still live in your parent's basement!"

You don't need the whole thread for that, just your last post.