interesting thread on civfanatics

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by sabrewolf

please also remember that all the (p)reviews have been hailing the superb game civ4 (which i'm sure it is) and praising the bug-free-ness, but not a single time did you hear "oh, by the way, we had bough a super-new computer and it only ran on our 1 year old computer after we did a driver update on our ATI cards. and we never tried it on a business-focussed-notebook".

This highlights the very poor quality of Gaming journalism these days. Who is advertising on the web sites and magazines.. games companies, video card manufacturers and people selling vid cards. Bring back the days when magazines like Amiga Power used to give awful games a rating of 4% because the cover art on the manual was nice

[ac_snowman]

Originally posted by Willem


The 7500s are working, it's just a question of making some adjustments in the display settings, namely turning down the ARP acceleration. As for the other cards, usually the problem is resolved by updating thier drivers. There might be some other reason for the failure, but it seems apparent it's primarily a hardware issue.

Actually, all the posters I've seen that have tried that adjustment have said that while it does take away the black terrain problem, the game is unplayable due to lag. So I guess "working" is up for debate.

It does seem to me though that they overestimated the bottom end requirements. They probably just looked at whether the card supported T&L and didn't consider whether it managed it well. They should have bumped the minimum up a notch or two IMO.

I think that you're exactly right with that. I think that is why most people are so upset over this. They relied on Firaxis's published stmts that they would be able to play this game on a radeon 7500 or other lower-end card supporting T&L. As such they really need to create a patch, if that's possible, or issue a "we overestimated, we're sorry, a refund is available".
I have a ton of respect for Firaxis, I think they do great work. That's what I would expect of them given their reputation.

The only thing that has me puzzled and wondering if the problem is indeed a software problem is the behavior of this "bug". It's not that the terrain and effects don't display, it's that they are displaying in the wrong place. Namely the exact center of the map. As you explore closer to the center the larger the "displayed" portion becomes until you can finally see the land tiles normally. I just don't see how that would be possible if it was purely a hardware issue.
I was actually able to play on my laptop using the smaller maps because of this. Once I got close to the center (which was actually in the ocean, about 90% of the terrain displayed no matter where I was on the map.

Of course now that I've home and playing the game in it's full glory on my desktop, I'm not sure I'll be able to go back to the laptop next time I'm on the road.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ac_snowman

The only thing that has me puzzled and wondering if the problem is indeed a software problem is the behavior of this "bug". It's not that the terrain and effects don't display, it's that they are displaying in the wrong place. Namely the exact center of the map. As you explore closer to the center the larger the "displayed" portion becomes until you can finally see the land tiles normally. I just don't see how that would be possible if it was purely a hardware issue.
I was actually able to play on my laptop using the smaller maps because of this. Once I got close to the center (which was actually in the ocean, about 90% of the terrain displayed no matter where I was on the map.

The fact that this occurs on all machines that don't have T&L support seems to me a pretty clear indication that is indeed a hardware issue.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Willem


The fact that this occurs on all machines that don't have T&L support seems to me a pretty clear indication that is indeed a hardware issue.

The problem is this:

• Game movies are choppy in-game, but if I play the .bik files with the player outside the game, they're smooth... real smooth. My video card (and the rest of my system) can handle them just fine.
• The terrain looks great in the editor. It's dark in the game. So, my video card can render the terrain.
• The leaderheads look fine if I install omega drivers and shut off AGP. It's terribly slow, but they can be rendered just fine. So, my video card is capable.
• My system meets and/or exceeds all the published specifications.

It's not simply a hardware issue. Yes, the game runs fantastic on certain configurations - but that doesn't mean it can't be patched to run on other configurations.

[Willem]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Franklinnoble

Game movies are choppy in-game, but if I play the .bik files with the player outside the game, they're smooth... real smooth. My video card (and the rest of my system) can handle them just fine.

If you're playing them in a standalone player, there's nothing else going on to bottle up your graphic card. How many things are happening in the game while the movies are running? The game alone requires alot of processing/graphic power, a lot more than just a video player, and that's certainly going to impact how well the movies run.

The terrain looks great in the editor. It's dark in the game. So, my video card can render the terrain.

Same thing.

The leaderheads look fine if I install omega drivers and shut off AGP. It's terribly slow, but they can be rendered just fine. So, my video card is capable.

Capable and optimal are two different things.

My system meets and/or exceeds all the published specifications.

Minimum or recommended? It sound to me like you're using the 7500 for a video card. You can't possibly expect the game to run like a charm with a minimum recommended card. And like I said, it really looks like they went too low in listing that one.

It's not simply a hardware issue. Yes, the game runs fantastic on certain configurations - but that doesn't mean it can't be patched to run on other configurations.

The black terrain/Cheshire Cat leaders are pretty much guarenteed to be hardware issues. There's a post around here somewhere by Locutus that more or less confirms this. You can accept it or not, it's your choice.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Willem



The black terrain/Cheshire Cat leaders are pretty much guarenteed to be a hardware issue. There's a post around here somewhere by Locutus that more or less confirms this. You can accept it or not, it's your choice.

All I've accepted from you at this point is that if there were a way for you to blame breast cancer, 9/11, bubonic plague, and Paris Hilton's 15 minutes of fame on my video card, you'd do it.

My card meets the published standard. Like lots of other people. And, like lots of other people, I'm a grown-up with a real job and a business class laptop that I use as my primary computer. The money we spend on computer games is as green as yours (is canadian money green?)

The point is, I don't have to accept a thing. I'm going to stick to my guns on this point, and await a patch as patiently as I can. If no fix is forthcoming, then I'm going to demand a full refund, and go back to playing Civ3. I sure as hell am not going to replace a 6 month old laptop because ONE computer game won't run on it. Every other game on the market right now will. You seem to believe it's OK for Civ4 to be the exception. Fine. Whatever. But I'll bet you that Firaxis fixes this problem - because whether you accept it or not, it IS a problem.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
My card meets the published standard.

The minimum published standard, you have to expect issues with that. And like I said, I think they went to low in listing that card, they should gone a bit higher. My sympathies.

The point is, I don't have to accept a thing. I'm going to stick to my guns on this point, and await a patch as patiently as I can. If no fix is forthcoming, then I'm going to demand a full refund, and go back to playing Civ3.

I suggest you get your money back now then "cause it ain't gonna happen". Here's the qoute I mentioned earlier, the discussion at the time involved the black terrain/cheshire cat issues. Keep in mind that Locutus is not only a moderator here, he was also one of the beta testers and designed at least one of the scenarios that came with the game. My guess is he knows where Firaxis stands on the matter.

The T&L issue is a hardware requirement, it is necessary to be able to play the game, this was announced over 6 months ago. If your graphics card is so crappy it doesn't support T&L (and this is true for many Intel cards -- if you're a gamer you shouldn't have an Intel card to begin with), you're out of luck. It's simply not possible to include T&L support for this game without rewriting large sections of it, killing a couple of features and taking a big hit on performance. If it was possible it would've been done from the start.

[batteryacid]

some remarks:

1) the 7500 radeon and the GF 4xx series support T&L and are specifically mentioned as fulfilling the requirement

2) I experience with my mobility 7500 a PROPER DISPLAY AT A CERTAIN ZOOM LEVEL - so how can this be if the hardware and not the game is crappy

3) when solving all the problems with the black terrain still the toast only city screen remains (only food and not hammers and coins are displayed) so again- how can this be a hardware problem and not a program bug

4) the GF 4xx and the radeon 7500 were NOT OUT OF DATE when they were put into the Laptops - some people here (and when you consider the average age of a civ player of around 25 as some polls indicated) might have bought a Laptop because they needed them for work and SPENT SOME EXTRA MONEY TO GET A 3d ACC GRAPHIC CARD INSIDE and ONE WHICH DIDN`T SHOW ANY PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER GAMES IN THE LAST YEAR

5) all the hardware that has this problems has NO problems with titles like Dawn of War, Jedi Kgiht 3, Far Cry, Serious Sam 1 and 2, someone even mentioned DOOM3 and Half Life 2 so again- how can anyone say that the game is not bugged (not to mention all the other bugs I read about here and in civfanatics)

conclusio:
The publisher wanted to sell the game too early and the consumer must pay with his nerves - I mean look at the bugs and some fixing procedures:

delete the "cache" folder, make a "ancient" folder and move the "ancienttimes.mp3 into this folder to be able to hear a music before the classical aera,
unpack and remove art0.fpk, random generator produces the same map with the same settings,
game flickering, random game crashes, crashes when religion comes up, crashes when wonder movie comes up, crashes in late game, invisible leader heads, no diplo screen at certain resolution, no options screen at certain resolution, change PC language from german to US to prevent .xml failure, failed to install, mouse disappeared , memory leaks here and there etc. etc.

[Willem]

You know, I'm getting really tired of this whole T&L issue. If you want to cling to the hope that all these issues will be fixed in a patch then so be it. Good luck and I hope you aren't to disappointed.