interesting thread on civfanatics

[Willem]

Originally posted by sabrewolf

at the same time size is the downside. because with reduced size, you are also limited in space of, and especially, between the components. if you have seen any decent modern graphics card, you'll see it has its own set of RAM, processors and nowadays its own ventilation.

A previous poster just mentioned that his laptop came with a Radeon 9000 card built in. That's good enough for running the game. It's not that it's impossible to get a half decent video card in those things, it's that the manufacturers aren't willing to. That doesn't automatically make it Firaxis' fault that the game won't work because of a substandard card.

but most people do not need 64MB of video card memory as surely not T&L accelleration (which btw is proprietary nVidia technology and is only emulated in ATI cards)

No they probably don't. But like I've said on a couple of occasions now, it's about time that the manufacturers realized that some people use these machines for more than just spreadsheets. Obviously people are using them for games at least occasionally, so they should be built accordingly. I just don't see how that becomes the fault of a game developer who's just utilizing technology that's been available for many years now.

just understand our frustration. after drooling 2 months long about the game, then you buy it for expensive money (i ordered 2 copies, 1 even from the US) and you cannot play it... you can surely imagine that it sucks.

And yes I do understand your frustration. I went through the same thing myself this summer when I realized that the video card built into my brand new motherboard wasn't good enough to run Pirates! But that didn't make it the fault of Firaxis and I certainly didn't spout off about their shoddy work. I just shrugged my shoulders and went out and bought a new card. It's just as well that I did because I went and bought three more games this summer that all used Hardware T&L. Without it my options for gaming would have been severely limited.

It's alot more expensive buying new laptop for sure but the principle is the same. Being an owner of one, you should accept the fact that they have certain limitations as far as upgrading is concerned. It's the risk you assume when buying one, and not every software developer in the world has to cater to your preferred platform if it doesn't meet up to today's gaming industry standards.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Willem
A previous poster just mentioned that his laptop came with a Radeon 9000 card built in. That's good enough for running the game. It's not that it's impossible to get a half decent video card in those things, it's that the manufacturers aren't willing to. That doesn't automatically make it Firaxis' fault that the game won't work because of a substandard card.

yeah, we crossposted (i took longer than 13 mins to write and post )

intel 64MB is not substandard... it's actually only substandard for addicted players !

No they probably don't. But like I've said on a couple of occasions now, it's about time that the manufacturers realized that some people use these machines for more than just spreadsheets. Obviously people are using them for games at least occasionally, so they should be built accordingly. I just don't see how that becomes the fault of a game developer who's just utilizing technology that's been available for many years now.

the notebook market is MUCH bigger than the market for games which don't use true and not-yet-fully accepted standards.
and i'm sure that the 95% other percent of the buyers wouldn't want their notebook 5% heavier, 10% bigger and 40% hotter and 200$ more expensive because of a bigger graphic card...

And yes I do understand your frustration. I went through the same thing myself this summer when I realized that the video card built into my brand new motherboard wasn't good enough to run Pirates! But that didn't make it the fault of Firaxis and I certainly didn't spout off about their shoddy work. I just shrugged my shoulders and went out and bought a new card. It's just as well that I did because I went and bought three more games this summer that all used Hardware T&L. Without it my options for gaming would have been severely limited.

It's alot more expensive buying new laptop for sure but the principle is the same. Being an owner of one, you should accept the fact that they have certain limitations as far as upgrading is concerned. It's the risk you assume when buying one, and not every software developer in the world has to cater to your preferred platform if it doesn't meet up to today's gaming industry standards.

hey, i was looking to upgrade my notebook! i'd be willing to pay 200€ for that in fact. but it just does not seem possible with these sizes.

and regarding the risk: yes, there is that. but usually that risk starts after 3 years. i only bought mine 1 year ago. noone would ever reckon that a non-realtime strategy game would have higher hardware minimas than doom3, halflife 2, far cry and similar stuff!

[Willem]

Originally posted by sabrewolf

intel 64MB is not substandard... it's actually only substandard for addicted players !

It's substandard if it doesn't support Hardware T&L, at least for games. The gaming industry is switching over to 3D so unless the laptop manufacturers recognize the need to include a 5 year old technology in their products, people just won't be able to play games on their laptops any more.

And it's not just laptops that are affected either. Like I said, I had to go out and buy a new video card in order to play Pirates! because my onboard card didn't support T&L. The bottom line is that these second rate video card people need to up their standards if they want to remain relevant.

the notebook market is MUCH bigger than the market for games which don't use true and not-yet-fully accepted standards.

Don't count on it. The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It pulls in more money now than the movie industry does. It can cost millions of dollars just to produce one now. And those standards soon will be accepted, all my game purchases this summer required it.

and i'm sure that the 95% other percent of the buyers wouldn't want their notebook 5% heavier, 10% bigger and 40% hotter and 200$ more expensive because of a bigger graphic card...

ljw1004 got a laptop with a half decent video card and I'm guessing it's no bigger than anyone elses. Probably smaller than many in fact. Chip size is shrinking all the time, with more and more functions being able to go on them. They're also getting cheaper.

and regarding the risk: yes, there is that. but usually that risk starts after 3 years. i only bought mine 1 year ago. noone would ever reckon that a non-realtime strategy game would have higher hardware minimas than doom3, halflife 2, far cry and similar stuff!

You've never heard of Moore's Law I take it. A 3 year old laptop is two generations behind state of the art. Even at 1 year, it's on the verge of being yesterday's news.

As for Civ 4's specs, it doesn't even come close to having high hardware standards in terms of today's gear. How many people out there now have 64 bit, 3+ ghz systems with 2 gig or more RAM, and video cards that have 256 RAM? And I just read recently that AMD is supposed to be releasing a 5 ghz chip this year.

With a recommended speed of 1.8 ghz, Civ 4 is small potatoes when it comes to system requirements these days.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by Willem


The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It pulls in more money now than the movie industry does. It can cost millions of dollars just to produce one now.

It would be cool to see top game programmers get paid the millions of dollars that top actors do now!!

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Willem


You've never heard of Moore's Law I take it. A 3 year old laptop is two generations behind state of the art. Even at 1 year, it's on the verge of being yesterday's news.

Funny how you cite Moore's Law in one post, then trash his company in another.

Intel makes cheap embedded video available on their motherboards for two reasons:

1. Most consumers think inexpensive is good. Go figure.

2. Intel is well aware that computer processing power on personal PC's is largely underutilized. There is more than enough juice in a Pentium 4 processor to run applications and emulate most graphics features more than sufficiently for anyone short of a CAD engineer.

Requiring hardware T&L (or any other proprietary chipset feature) is just lazy programming. Firaxis coded this app and didn't bother to concern themselves with testing on anything but hardcore gaming rigs - either that, or they deliberately ignored the Radeon 7500 issue.

However you want to debate the matter, the simple fact is this - there is a substantial user base who simply cannot upgrade to a new video card, either for financial reasons, or because they've got company laptops. And, no, they are NOT running obsolete hardware. Some folks will return the game. I'm going to give them some time to patch it. But if they don't address it, you can bet that they're going to lose money when the expansions start rolling out, because I won't buy them.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Funny how you cite Moore's Law in one post, then trash his company in another.

Why is that ironic? Just because I don't like their approach to video cards, I'm not allowed to mention an observation of one of their people? Your logic is a bit skewed there.

Requiring hardware T&L (or any other proprietary chipset feature) is just lazy programming.

Crap! I bought 4 games this summer by various developers, all of which required Hardware T&L. If it's lazy programming then quite a few of the better game developers are guilty of it. Enough to indicate to me that it is becoming an industry standard.

Firaxis coded this app and didn't bother to concern themselves with testing on anything but hardcore gaming rigs - either that, or they deliberately ignored the Radeon 7500 issue.

The play testers used their own systems, not ones provided by Firaxis. One person even mentioned that he almost had to drop out because his rig couldn't handle it. But he upgraded, on his own, and stuck with it.

And, no, they are NOT running obsolete hardware.

Sorry but if all they have is a Radeon 7500 or some basic Intel video chip, then yes they are running obsolete hardware. And that's not the fault of Firaxis.

Some folks will return the game. I'm going to give them some time to patch it. But if they don't address it, you can bet that they're going to lose money when the expansions start rolling out, because I won't buy them.

Yes, I'm sure that you not buying an expansion is going to bankrupt them. That is such a cliche threat. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that about Civ 3, I'd be a rich man today

The Civ series is one of the most successful in the history of computer games, and so far Civ 4 has been getting rave reviews, far better than Civ 3. I'm sure they'll manage without a few spoiled consumers who insist that all game developers should dumb down their products to run on their inferior hardware.

[LDiCesare]

However you want to debate the matter, the simple fact is this - there is a substantial user base who simply cannot upgrade to a new video card, either for financial reasons, or because they've got company laptops. And, no, they are NOT running obsolete hardware. Some folks will return the game. I'm going to give them some time to patch it. But if they don't address it, you can bet that they're going to lose money when the expansions start rolling out, because I won't buy them.

I have a laptop. When I bought it, I made sure to get the best vid card possible because I knew 2 things:
- I play games (mostly TBS and role playing games)
- games require obscene graphics cards even though the gameplay clearly doesn't need that (Civ1 or NetHack aren't heavy on graphics and are some of the best games ever made).
So imo someone who complains about graphics cards in a laptop has not realised this piece of info: If you want to play games on a laptop; you must buy the best possible video card at the time you buy the laptop. Or else be ready to throw it away in one year. As for company laptops, one should buy a laptop for oneself rather than complain that a game doesn't run on a piece of hardware one didn't even buy and on which one is probably not supposed to install games.

[daego]

Wow, y'all are some angry people.

If your computer cannot run Civ 4 (no T&L, not talking abou the driver issues that some cards have, which are regularly fixed by the manufacturers) then yes, it does have obsolete technology in so far as Civ 4 is concerned. Is it obsolete to run Microsoft Word? No. Civ 3? No.

No matter how much you complain, it won't change the fact that your card doesn't run T&L. It would be nice to be able to change the physical world by whining, but you can't.

Suck it up, save for a month, and go out and get a new card. You don't need a $300 card, $60 will do. Even less if you go the Ebay route. Most of you laptop users knew the risks of getting a laptop, namely that they are nearly impossible to upgrade anything more than a hard drive or some RAM.

[LDiCesare]

daego, you can't upgrade vid cards for laptops, so laptop owners whine more because they'll need something around 1000$ at least to get a decent replacement system which will last for 1 year, and maybe 3500$ for something that'll last 3 to 5 years. The problem is they should realise that when you chose a laptop, you chose more expensive and less life. I have a laptop, know that, and buy and plan replcamenet accordingly.

[daego]

Agreed, LDiCesare, read my last line. :-) You especially cannot expect a $900 laptop to run the game, likely even a brand new one. There is a reason they are only $900 for a laptop. My laptop runs perfectly fine (boyfriend uses it for civ4), over a year old but cost me well over $2500 at the time. Well, cost my work 2500, heh heh.

civ4 = work, right?!

[aceshigh]

Originally posted by Willem

Sorry but if all they have is a Radeon 7500 or some basic Intel video chip, then yes they are running obsolete hardware. And that's not the fault of Firaxis.

I've said before, and I'll say again, I wouldn't have a problem at all with this 7500 issue, simply chalking it up to obsolete hardware, if they didn't specifically mention the ATI Raedon 7500 as being the minimum requirement for this game. Other developers/distributors have higher requirements after all....

Then I, as a consumer, know that this software won't run properly on my system and I don't plunk down my hard-earned money on a game that won't work.

Under-representing the hardware requirements of a game really smacks of greed and misrepresentation on some level of the development/distribution line.

And if they aren't purposely misrepresenting (and I'm not saying they are.. I don't know what the situation is), then I expect there will be a patch to bring the game up (or down) to the point where it can be played on the advertised minimum required hardware, or some kind of official announcement stating that the requirements are higher than they originally thought and possibly offering some kind of recall/return policy. That would be something that a business that has the interests of their consumers at heart would do.. At least in my opinion.

Originally posted by Willem

Yes, I'm sure that you not buying an expansion is going to bankrupt them. That is such a cliche threat. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that about Civ 3, I'd be a rich man today

The Civ series is one of the most successful in the history of computer games, and so far Civ 4 has been getting rave reviews, far better than Civ 3. I'm sure they'll manage without a few spoiled consumers who insist that all game developers should dumb down their products to run on their inferior hardware.

I don't think it's being particularly unreasonable or spoiled to want this game to run on my admittedly 'inferior' system because of what I stated above. Unless they've changed the definition of minimum system requirements lately, I'd expect to be able to run the game on anything at that point or above. Perhaps slower or at a lower level of detail, but not with game-breaking, computer-freezing graphical issues.

And perhaps a single dissastified customer wouldn't make a dent, but it really only takes one person to rally other dissatisfied people behind a cause to hurt a company.

I would hope Firaxis and Take Two realize this, even if you don't, and at least attempt to remedy the situation with some of their customers who are feeling pretty ripped off at the moment (not to mention jealous of all the people who can happily play the game without issues ).

[Willem]

Originally posted by aceshigh


I've said before, and I'll say again, I wouldn't have a problem at all with this 7500 issue, simply chalking it up to obsolete hardware, if they didn't specifically mention the ATI Raedon 7500 as being the minimum requirement for this game. Other developers/distributors have higher requirements after all....

People with 7500 are getting the game to work. It has something to do with turning off the ARP in SmartGart. But it costs alot in game speed by doing so. So your whole argument here just falls flat.

Then I, as a consumer, know that this software won't run properly on my system and I don't plunk down my hard-earned money on a game that won't work.

I've been hearing this argument over at Civ Fanatics as well. If you have equipment that only meets the minimum requirements then you should expect issues. If I was in that situation, I would consider it a crap shoot as to whether I could run the game or not. Especially when it comes to a video card with a 3D game. All sorts of problems can crop up, not just game slow down.

(not to mention jealous of all the people who can happily play the game without issues ).

Aah, so now we get to the real reason why you're ranting. Well I feel for you, I'm jealous too because I don't have the money to buy it yet.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Willem


Why is that ironic? Just because I don't like their approach to video cards, I'm not allowed to mention an observation of one of their people? Your logic is a bit skewed there.



Crap! I bought 4 games this summer by various developers, all of which required Hardware T&L. If it's lazy programming then quite a few of the better game developers are guilty of it. Enough to indicate to me that it is becoming an industry standard.



The play testers used their own systems, not ones provided by Firaxis. One person even mentioned that he almost had to drop out because his rig couldn't handle it. But he upgraded, on his own, and stuck with it.



Sorry but if all they have is a Radeon 7500 or some basic Intel video chip, then yes they are running obsolete hardware. And that's not the fault of Firaxis.



Yes, I'm sure that you not buying an expansion is going to bankrupt them. That is such a cliche threat. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that about Civ 3, I'd be a rich man today

The Civ series is one of the most successful in the history of computer games, and so far Civ 4 has been getting rave reviews, far better than Civ 3. I'm sure they'll manage without a few spoiled consumers who insist that all game developers should dumb down their products to run on their inferior hardware.

[Willem]

Was there a point to that or are you just trying to up your post count?

[sabrewolf]

willem, i guess we won't be able to agree on what should be standard and what not. i see it more from the mobility and business side while you weigh the gaming and technical superiority higher.

but just to clear some things you understood wrong:

the notebook market is MUCH bigger than the market for games which don't use true and not-yet-fully accepted standards.

Don't count on it. The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It pulls in more money now than the movie industry does. It can cost millions of dollars just to produce one now. And those standards soon will be accepted, all my game purchases this summer required it.

you did not read my full sentence. i am fully aware that the gaming industry is huge! but i was focussing on the market of games where proprietary (non-standard) limitations were enforced...

and i'm sure that the 95% other percent of the buyers wouldn't want their notebook 5% heavier, 10% bigger and 40% hotter and 200$ more expensive because of a bigger graphic card...

ljw1004 got a laptop with a half decent video card and I'm guessing it's no bigger than anyone elses. Probably smaller than many in fact. Chip size is shrinking all the time, with more and more functions being able to go on them. They're also getting cheaper.

he got an IBM T41p, which is
a) from the T-series... which is around 14-15", so remarkably larger that the X-series (12").
b) the 'p' stands for power. you pay approx 400$ more. now i'd do that, but the X-series does not have a higher spec version.

As for Civ 4's specs, it doesn't even come close to having high hardware standards in terms of today's gear. How many people out there now have 64 bit, 3+ ghz systems with 2 gig or more RAM, and video cards that have 256 RAM? And I just read recently that AMD is supposed to be releasing a 5 ghz chip this year.

With a recommended speed of 1.8 ghz, Civ 4 is small potatoes when it comes to system requirements these days.

yeah, but my main point is: civ4 is a turn based strategy game, which historically means it need both less rendering power and generally not such a high performance. i believe it should not be that a civ4 has more restrictive specs than the oposite type of games (like FPS) which are built precisely for high performance only.
but the difference is: if i turn down resolution and detail level, i can play doom3, halflife 2 and far cry on the notebook but civ4 won't even work on the most basic settings...


and regarding the CPU speed recommendation: these figures are not anymore very representative. with the centrino/mobile chips you get higher performance at lower clock speeds (i heard that a Pentium M 1.6GHz is approx like a Pentium 4 2.4-2.8 GHz (less for CPU-stuff like DivX encoding)

anyhow, good programming means that you use resources available but allow it to also work without. T&L is nVidia-specific and ATI only emulates it because they had no other choice. most hardware stuff can be emulated, why not this?