interesting thread on civfanatics

[Willem]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
you did not read my full sentence. i am fully aware that the gaming industry is huge! but i was focussing on the market of games where proprietary (non-standard) limitations were enforced...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Like I mentioned, I bought 4 games this summer, all of which required T&L. That indicates to me that it is becoming an industry standard associated with this shift to 3D that we are seeing. Game companies aren't going to stand still while the laptop industry catches up to them so they can produce their products.

he got an IBM T41p, which is
a) from the T-series... which is around 14-15", so remarkably larger that the X-series (12").
b) the 'p' stands for power. you pay approx 400$ more. now i'd do that, but the X-series does not have a higher spec version.

The point is that it's not impossible to get a half decent video card in a laptop. And just like with desktops, you have to find your own compromise between price and performance. Just don't expect everything to run well, or even at all, if you want to save money on a low end rig.

yeah, but my main point is: civ4 is a turn based strategy game, which historically means it need both less rendering power and generally not such a high performance. i believe it should not be that a civ4 has more restrictive specs than the oposite type of games (like FPS) which are built precisely for high performance only.

We don't know what's under the hood of Civ 4. By the sounds of it the AI is considerably better than in previous versions. That may very well mean that it requires a fairly high end processor to handle the sub-routines effectively.

As for the 3D, the entire industry is shifting toward this type of platform, why should Firaxis be any different? For one thing, it's much easier to produce graphics for them since you don't have to bother rendering individual frames for to use for animations. That saves time and money for the developer. When you're talking about titles costing several million dollars to produce these days, anything to reduce costs is going to be essential if a company wants to stay alive. The computer gaming industry is a dog eat dog environment, and companies can't be expected to cater to every single niche market if they hope to avoid going under. Somewhere along the way they have to make choices as to who they want to target, and unfortunatley this time around the laptop users got the cut.

but the difference is: if i turn down resolution and detail level, i can play doom3, halflife 2 and far cry on the notebook but civ4 won't even work on the most basic settings...

That just means that they are using T&L in a different manner. How do you know that Firaxis didn't look at other options and cancel them out as being impractical for their goals? You don't. I'm sure they were aware that they would be losing alot of laptop users with this requirement, and they decided that it was a necessary sacrifice.

anyhow, good programming means that you use resources available but allow it to also work without. T&L is nVidia-specific and ATI only emulates it because they had no other choice. most hardware stuff can be emulated, why not this?

There comes a point when software developers have to make a decision whether to incorporate new technologies and approaches in their products, even though that means leaving many of their customers in the dust. That's been the way of the computer industry since day one. It sucks for the people who get left out, but that's the only way that the industry as a whole can progress. Firaxis made one of those decisions with this game and it's now up to the general public whether or not they want to keep up with them.

And this probably isn't going to be the last time that people will have to deal with this. Like I said other developers are using T&L as well. As time goes by, more and more games aren't going to be compatible with the types of video cards being used in laptops today. On the bright side though, this move will force Intel etc. to start making better chips or they'll be losing business to manufacturer who provide compatible systems.

PS: It's going to be really interesting to see people's reactions when 64 bit technology becomes mainstream and their current systems/programs won't work at all. This is such a minor issue in the overall scheme of computing, but a lot of people are crying blue murder over it. They're sounding like a bunch of Luddites.

[joncnunn]

Re: interesting thread on civfanatics

I find it weird that a machine only bought on Aug 2004 would have "too old a video chipset".

It's a partual black, that affectly shrinks as the game progresses [well I built Stonehidge, so that expanded culture]

There's a mistranslation going on between undiscovered vs visible terriagn background color.

Originally posted by vee4473
a thread over there on their civ 4 help forum titled "i just talked to civ4 customer support" or something like that said the following:


And it's all bad news. Basically, if you are getting the black terrain, it means that your video chipset is too old to run the game, and there is no solution planned for that. If you are seeing some of the terrain, while the rest is black, it means the same thing--your video chipset is too old, and you will not be able to play the game properly on that machine.

So, in conclusion, if you are having video problems with Civ4, they are there to stay because Firaxis made the game that way. There is no solution right now, and there is not one planned in the future. I am returning my own copy to the store tomorrow. Apparently, my one-and-a-half-year-old P4 2.4 laptop, which runs Doom 3 and HL2 flawlessly is not good enough to run the incredibly technologically advanced Civ4.


end quote.

I have a geforce 4 mx440 and I fear now.

[joncnunn]

Your describing exactly what I've seen. (Only I haven't used the reveal hidden terriagn option, but have instead just played a lot of turns.)

Suffice it to say, I agree 100%.

Originally posted by runfunsun

[joncnunn]

The difference in my shots is that my non-black area grew from the NW corner instead of the SW corner.

Perhaps your in the southern hemisphere in your game and I'm in the northern hemisphere in my game.

[SIZE=1]
note that if i had started on a much bigger map chances are i would not see ANY terrain, i'd just see a big black map with dark terrain and resources.

this is a bug.

or .. put it another way .. the reviewers, critics, magazine people, and people who give out game of the year awards ... they're sure as hell going to say it's a bug.

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by Khaim
Solver, there's a problem with your explanation. Namely, I have a Radeon Mobility 7500, which has T&L, and I have black terrain.

I would also like to point out that black terrain is actually the second worst problem of the graphics glitch bug. The worst part is that you can't see production values on the map, either in city mode or with settlers highlighted. This makes in incredibly hard to optimize your cities and figure out what they're capable of.

Oh, and chesire leaders aren't very amusing either. Kind of creepy, really.

I thought the chesire leaders were intentional!

I'm been trusting the AI on where to place settlers. (For the first time since my first few Civ II games)

[Willem]

Re: Re: interesting thread on civfanatics

Originally posted by joncnunn
I find it weird that a machine only bought on Aug 2004 would have "too old a video chipset".

It's a partual black, that affectly shrinks as the game progresses [well I built Stonehidge, so that expanded culture]

There's a mistranslation going on between undiscovered vs visible terriagn background color.

It's a symptom that your video card probably doesn't support Hardware T&L, which is a requirement for the game. And it's not necessarily that your card is too old, but that the manufacturer didn't bother to include the hardware that's needed into the chips. Your only option is to upgrade your video card. If you have a laptop you're SOL, you'll have to replace the whole machine.

[Franklinnoble]

Re: Re: Re: interesting thread on civfanatics

Originally posted by Willem


It's a symptom that your video card probably doesnn't support Hardware T&L, which is a requirement for the game. And it's not necessarily that your card is too old, but that the manufacturer didn't bother to include the hardware that's needed into the chips. Your only option is to upgrade your video card. If you have a laptop you're SOL, you'll have to replace the whole machine.

Can I ask you a question?

Seriously...

Why are you here?

You don't even own the game, by your own admission, and yet you feel compelled to lurk around the Help forum and tell people their video cards suck and they need to buy new stuff.

Do you work for Nvidia? Or own a lot of stock?

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Re: interesting thread on civfanatics

Originally posted by Franklinnoble


Can I ask you a question?

Seriously...

Why are you here?

You don't even own the game, by your own admission, and yet you feel compelled to lurk around the Help forum and tell people their video cards suck and they need to buy new stuff.

Do you work for Nvidia? Or own a lot of stock?

I'm not lurking, I come here because notices appear in my email. Is that such a mystery to you?

And which would you prefer if you were having some sort of issue. To lurch around on your own and try and figure it out, or to have someone come along and tell you straight away what the problem was, thereby saving you a hassle?

Do you have a problem with me trying to be helpful? Just because I don't own the game... yet, doesn't exclude me from participating in the community. I've paid my dues around here, I've been around for several years now. I'm entitled to hang out if I choose to.

[Franklinnoble]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: interesting thread on civfanatics

Originally posted by Willem


I'm not lurking, I come here because notices appear in my email. Is that such a mystery to you?

And which would you prefer if you were having some sort of issue. To lurch around on your own and try and figure it out, or to have someone come along and tell you straight away what the problem was, thereby saving you a hassle?

Do you have a problem with me trying to be helpful? Just because I don't own the game... yet, doesn't exclude me from participating in the community. I've paid my dues around here, I've been around for several years now. I'm entitled to hang out if I choose to.

I have a problem with you telling everyone who doesn't own the latest Nvidia chipset that their video card is the problem.

Firaxis needs to support more than just the proprietary Nvidia technology here. That's the real issue. They published a set of standards that their game doesn't meet, and I really can't figure out why you're perpetually on the other side of this issue.

I can see you're a smart guy, and I know you've been here a while (I used to be very active here years ago when Civ3 came out). I just think it would be more productive to champion the need for a patch as opposed for the need for everyone to run out and buy new hardware.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
I have a problem with you telling everyone who doesn't own the latest Nvidia chipset that their video card is the problem.

Well it is. Would you prefer I lie to them?

Firaxis needs to support more than just the proprietary Nvidia technology here. That's the real issue. They published a set of standards that their game doesn't meet, and I really can't figure out why you're perpetually on the other side of this issue.

Firaxis needs to keep up with times and changes in technolgy that are happening. If some people get left behind, well sorry for their luck. Maybe they should try to keep up themselves. As I've mentioned on several occasions now, of the 4 games I bought this summer, all of them required Hardware T&L. One of them was from Firaxis, the rest were from very reputable developers. It's not like it's brand new technology, it's been around for at least 5 years now. One game I bought was released 3 years ago. And it's going to be used more and more as the gaming industry moves to 3D for their titles.

I just think it would be more productive to champion the need for a patch as opposed for the need for everyone to run out and buy new hardware.

I have no intention of being a Luddite. Computer technology is progressing and it's in no one's interest to try and hold it back just so a small percentage of people who are reluctant to change can hold onto standards that they feel comfortable with. Accept the changes or be left behind, it's your choice.

[Stromprophet]

Willem,

I would just quit responding.

1) I don't like the fact that this thread turned into a flame war. Supposed to be about helping not just arguing.

2) Obviously you are not just a lurker, I mean you have been registered to this site for 4 years, you are responding to someone who has been registered for 6 months. A certain level of appreciation for civ can be seen in that.

Anyone who even played civ II was probably registered to this site by 2000 or earlier.

People that are complaining constantly are inciting people to bash them, of course both sides should just back off.

My card doesn't work all that well either. My sound is still skipping, but for the most part the game is playable for me at the moment.

[ac_snowman]

One interesting point of fact...this problem is not limited to graphic cards that don't support T&L.
I have an ATI mobility 7500 which is specifically listed by Firaxis as a useable card and it does have T&L. I've confirmed this at srtest.com.
I've seen a lot of posts by people with 7500's and other T&L supporting cards. Some of these fall into the min reqs category like the 7500 and some are steps up in terms of onboard RAM and performance, but the problem is identical.
Fortunately for me I also have a desktop with an Nvidea 6800 that runs the game beautifully. However, I was very frustrated while I was traveling for the first four days I owned the game and couldn't get it to run on my brand new Thinkpad.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ac_snowman
I've seen a lot of posts by people with 7500's and other T&L supporting cards. Some of these fall into the min reqs category like the 7500 and some are steps up in terms of onboard RAM and performance, but the problem is identical.

The 7500s are working, it's just a question of making some adjustments in the display settings, namely turning down the ARP acceleration. As for the other cards, usually the problem is resolved by updating thier drivers. There might be some other reason for the failure, but it seems apparent it's primarily a hardware issue.

It does seem to me though that they overestimated the bottom end requirements. They probably just looked at whether the card supported T&L and didn't consider whether it managed it well. They should have bumped the minimum up a notch or two IMO.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Stromprophet
1) I don't like the fact that this thread turned into a flame war. Supposed to be about helping not just arguing.

I think you're confusing a lively debate with a flame war. If we were flaming eech other, then the insults would be flying. There have been strong opinions yes, but it's been mainly a courteous and civil interchange.

[Stromprophet]

Well, maybe. But I find sarcastic remarks to be often inciting. And a lot of them have been. A sarcastic remark that often time has the underlying meaning "I'm smarter than you and your dumber than a rock opinion"

Sorry, my main issue is that a thread, especially in the help forum, should be helping. Not just arguing.