Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 2 online

[Drakan]

Wow, this game is just looking better and better day by day. Solver and the rest of beta testers.

[yin26]

Originally posted by Ninot
I'd like to know if Yin is currently expecting civ 2.7 like he has previously said, a civ 3, or something beyond that?

Well, I need the game in my hands before I can say for sure, but everything I've seen so far looks promising! I'd like to hear more about how the AI is just tearing up the human player, though...

[Harovan]

Wow, this game is just looking better and better day by day.

Yes it does. So far I see only two features I don't like (tile-sharing and the standard game shortened to 400 turns - for the love of god don't flame me on that again!), while all the rest is overwhelmingly positive.

[yin26]

Originally posted by hexagonian

From what I can see from Solver's report, classic ICS is going to take a beating, [snip] I'm really curious to see if Yin can pull this off, especially in the early game when it matters the most. Give it your best shot!!!

Hex:

You are elected to my judging committee because I know you are sharp and fair. Please accept! AOM actually taught me some interesting tricks about city expansion in the early game, and while it's clear you'll be able to have a lot of cities in the mid or at least late game (if you are doing well, of course), my focus is the early game. I've a few ideas, though certainly there have been some excellent beta testers, and if they haven't figured it out, I'm not too hopeful...

[yin26]

A word to everybody on ICS:

Its "death" pre-supposes that the AI will actually press its attack, for one. Also, we've been told that defense is much more robust proposition this time around, so even if the AI takes an early lead on you, perhaps the human player can withstand it. This will be particularly true if the AI isn't coming at you with mixed arms and enough units at one time to really hurt you.

So let's not get ahead of ourselves on this topic just yet. I agree that a number of changes have made ICS much less profitable in the early game...but this needs more testing!

[Dale]

I must agree with yin (pick ya mouth off the floor mate ). The real test of whether ICS is dead or not is if the AI can press the advantage of the human falling behind while building all those settlers. If it cannot, it will give the human breathing space to build up the economy to pay for all those cities.

However, if a human ICS'es and falls behind in tech and military growth, AND the AI presses this advantage, then all I can see is another Roman Empire falling chunk by chunk to the neighbors.

Dale

[yin26]

Time of death due to shock:

All times are GMT +9 hours. The time now is 21:11.
Apolyton Time is 07:11.

This means, of course, that you and Hex need to start working on that killer AI mod ASAP. Even if the out of the box AI is good, you guys need to make it a (non-cheating) monster!

[Atahualpa]

You're not talking about ICS. You just talk about rapid expansion. Rapid expansion is the strategy leading to ICS which is the goal (infinite cities for infinite gold).

What Firaxis has done is discourage rapid expansion as the one-to-rule-them-all strategy and kill ICS (with the assumption that there is a finite amount of gold that each city can produce - an assumption that I believe to be true). Even if rapid expansion would be a viable strategy, ICS (the goal and not the strategy) is dead.

In any case, if rapid expansion can still be made to work somehow, that would be generally a good thing if it doesn't dominate other strategies.

[yin26]

That's right. I try to clarify at points that by ICS I'm talking mindless expansion as the only viable (well, clearly easiest) way to win at higher levels. Frankly, even if rapid expansion is still possible in Civ 4, it appears a lot of the mindless aspect of it has been taken out, and I see this as a huge gain. Also, expansion should never be taken out of the game (it's Civ, after all!), but it should involve some thinking and strategy. It seems hopeful that this is the case now.

But not to harp on this point as well, without a competent AI, this stuff is all rather moot. Solver has lightly touched on this, but I'd like to hear what kinds of things the AI is doing that would impress the hardcore fans?

[Harrier UK]

Information screen.

Warrior Current 1, Built 5, Lost 2. I guess the missing 2 were upgraded or gifted.

If upgraded do they appear as built again against the new unit. Just wondering.

Edit:

To clarify : 5 (built) - 2 (lost) = 3. But only 1 is current. So there are another 2 missing.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I get a strong feeling that AI and Diplomacy/Trade are the two areas which Solver will be dealing with in part 3 of his preview (and the two areas I am MOST looking forward to, btw). Solver or Mark, any ETA on Part 3? I need another Civ4 fix !
Oh and, like everyone else, I always believed that ICS was a specific exploit which allowed greater success to instantly come from greater # of cities. The other term for it floating around is 'The Snowball Effect' (though, admittedly, that has more to do with non-exploitative bigger=better syndrome).
So, given that the 'exploit' side seems to be less effective, and given that the 'non-exploit' side no longer seems necessary, then I definitely get a sense that ICS/Snowball-though not 100% dead, embalmed and interred, is definitely on the 'critical and not expecting to last the night' list !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Ennet]

The second action is settling in a city. That essentially gives the city a "super specialist" who has the effect of several normal specialists and is thus a considerable boost to that city.

Does this increase the size of the city by 1? Or does it just turn one of the existing citizens into a "super specialist"? Does theese super specialist require food? Can they die, if a city shrinks in size? If the city is conquered, do they remain?

for the preview, btw.

[alva]

Originally posted by Harrier UK
Information screen.

Warrior Current 1, Built 5, Lost 2. I guess the missing 2 were upgraded or gifted.

If upgraded do they appear as built again against the new unit. Just wondering.

Lost =(assumed) lost in battle (although, that could indeed include gifted)

[Solver]

All civs can vote in the UN.

The Secretary general doesn't win the game by being reelected. He has to call a separate vote for the diplo victory.

Tech whoring is absolutely and completely gone. More in part 3.

Ralph - the game's 430 and not 400 turns on the normal mode. Plus, if you enjoy longer games, then you'll probably love the Epic mode.

Super specialists do not increase the city size or anything. They just add a bonus to the city, and I think it's permanent.

[Nikolai]

Well, all this sounds better and better. Oh, and I just love to follow your posts about the ICS tactic yin.