Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 2 online

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by yin26
...whispers to Solver : But even the things I'm thinking of won't produce anything like the ICS mess we've seen before, so, frankly, I'm quite impressed to this point. Worried for my stomach but impressed.

From what I can see from Solver's report, classic ICS is going to take a beating, because it appears that players can actually lose gold from their net total if they grow too fast. In civ3 you had corruption, but you always were able to gain net gold per city.

However, this may not discount the player from having the means to ICS at certain points in the game. It may also be possible to take the early hit to your society and then once you get to a higher civic level that allows for less maintenance costs, you can then slingshot up the charts because you have your cities already in place.

...Similar to the type of slingshot effect with Marketplaces/Republic government in civ3 for generating a truckload of gold. It's all about timing.

A lot depends on whether the AI will allow the player the luxury of doing this too. Solver has reported that is not the case. In MP, the time to hit an ICSer was in the early game because you did not want to allow him to get established.

I'm really curious to see if Yin can pull this off, especially in the early game when it matters the most. Give it your best shot!!!

Solver, is the civ3 game strategy of tech whoring still viable? I hope not...because that could be a workaround for the ICSer. (Though giving gold to the AI might end up allowing it to create more cities, as it would have more gold to pay for maintenance...)

[Harrier UK]

Originally posted by alva

If you had 75 Great Engineer points and 25 Great Prophet points and then got a Great Engineer Person. Is everything set back to zero. That is - do you lose the 25 Great Prophet points ?

You don't loose them as you needed - in this case - a 100 points to spawn one anyway.

It depends on what triggered the GL. The accumulated 100 points - or some other event associated with the engineer. You may have just completed a new building that gave the GL.

All I am asking is do points accumulated by other Leader types get reset or are they retained.

You may have had:

Engineer - 72
Prophet - 25
Scientist - 01
Merchant - 01 (99%)

Less than 100%

Then something (new building/researched tech. etc.) gave the Engineer +3. ( total 75%)

Overall = 102%.

Or maybe not : - as I have not yet seen the game.

All I am wondering about is, is the generation of a Great Leader dependant on all specialists values reaching 100% or just the leading one. And also regardless of how - once a GL is spawned (born) are the other values reset.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Well, didn't Solver say in part 1 that if you fall far enough behind in technology-you will be seen as easy prey for any aggressive civs in your vicinity. If anything would discourage you from bankrupting yourself early, via ICS, it would be that (well, and the risk of being culturally absorbed of course!). Also remember that without an income you also can't do unit upgrades, which will make you even more easy pickings for militaristic/expansive civs! Assuming you can survive this difficult stage in one piece, then I guess there probably ARE options for an early ICS'er to slingshot into a leading position. However, it sounds incredibly risky-and with no guarantee of success, the absolute antithises of ICS as a strategy!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Simplicity]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
From what I hear, an unhappy person simply doesn't DO anything (i.e. he is on strike) Obviously this is bad when you consider that said citizen is still consuming food-but not generating anything in return (be it gold, hammers or food). This is probably what Solver means when he says Citizen specialists are good for preventing unhappiness problems. A specialist cannot-by definition-be unhappy-and so you are at least getting something in return for losing a worked tile, rather than nothing at all.

But turning a citizen into a specialist doesn't guarantee that you're turning an unhappy citizen into a specialist. I believe the content citizen pool is worked through first, IIRC from Civ3. So if you had 1 content/1 unhappy and you made a citizen... you'd wind up with 1 unhappy/1 citizen. Now, none of your squares are being worked (except the central, of course).

As far as I can tell, there are two advantages to the citizen specialist:
1) For cities that are in food-rich, hammer-poor areas. Remember that you can't just build mines all around your city if you need "shields". The land has to support your improvements now. And you have to have the right techs to build them anyways.
2) A default. If you don't have the tech for other specialists.... What does +2 free specialists give you? What do your people do when they run out of land to work?

[Imran Siddiqui]

However, it sounds incredibly risky-and with no guarantee of success, the absolute antithises of ICS as a strategy!

Indeed. If you can do ICS, it seems a strategy where you have very high risks and fairly high rewards (but I don't think the rewards are as great as the risks... there is the lost time to consider when you were ICS'ing, waiting for the civic to slingshot up). Perhaps it could work on a limited basis, but it's going to require some balls to do it (or a game you don't particularly care about winning ).

[playshogi]

According to the units killed screen posted by Solver, he killed a total of 37 units. He also admits to conquering 2 complete civs! He built 52 units, while losing 19. It really does look like micromanagement is reduced because you just won't have that many units. I may actually like combat this time around.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Harrier UK
All I am wondering about is, is the generation of a Great Leader dependant on all specialists values reaching 100% or just the leading one. And also regardless of how - once a GL is spawned (born) are the other values reset.

Think of it this way.

You have a pool of 'colorless' points. That pool needs to get to 100 to give you a GL.

When it gets to 100, the computer takes a look at the different 'colors' of GL points, and uses those probabilities to give you a GL.

Then your entire GL pool is reset ...

That's how I understand Solver's explanation. The different types of points don't matter, except to figure out which type of GL might be generated.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
You can also leave the governor on, but tell it to "force" certain specialists. So, there is a half-and-half solution. You can say to yourself "this is my science city" and then go in and "force" two scientists. The governor will then best try to juggle things assuming there has to be at lesat two scientists.

Soren escaping the "gold rush" madness

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hey Mark, while you're in the neighbourhood. I am curious as to whether or not it is possible to blockade another civs trade routes (either resource or underlying) and, if so, how easy is it to do this time around.
Also, are embargoes back as a diplomatic option?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, and I agree that it is almost certain that Soren merely 'stepped out for some fresh air', as you might say !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Master-Mike]

What are the chances of a Civil war with ICS. There have been nearly as many civil wars as wars of aggression in our civilization. How is this handled in CIV IV and is it linked to ICS.

[korn469]

Master-Mike

From the coverage so far it appears that civil wars aren't in standard civ4, but the possibility exists to mod them in. I plan on creating a mod at some point that includes civil wars, partisans, and more apoctolyptic nukes along with other changes (though my changes hinge on the editor being able to properly implement each change).

[Fidel]

Originally posted by MarkG
Soren escaping the "gold rush" madness

ha! so it has not gone gold yet


how come poly is not listed on the official site?

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
Well, didn't Solver say in part 1 that if you fall far enough behind in technology-you will be seen as easy prey for any aggressive civs in your vicinity. If anything would discourage you from bankrupting yourself early, via ICS, it would be that (well, and the risk of being culturally absorbed of course!). Also remember that without an income you also can't do unit upgrades, which will make you even more easy pickings for militaristic/expansive civs! Assuming you can survive this difficult stage in one piece, then I guess there probably ARE options for an early ICS'er to slingshot into a leading position. However, it sounds incredibly risky-and with no guarantee of success, the absolute antithises of ICS as a strategy!

Hey folks, ICS is dead!!!
Just read it aloud: INFINITE City Sleaze/Sprawl
If you've got infinite cities, you also got an infinite high maintenance. Thus ICS is dead, plain and simple. You need to develop another name. Fast City Sleaze/Sprawl or something like that, which could be a risky but viable strategy.
Expansion in Civ4 seems to be a process that requires good planning and you'll certainly not build a city just because there is space to build a city. With ICS you'd do that in Civ4 you're likely not to do it.

Soren, thanx for the info on specialists

[Anakha]

"By themselves, specials have a positive effect. Artists produce culture, scientists produce breakers towards technological research and so on."

Just nitpicking on spelling errors again: I assume "specials" should be "specialists", and as several other people have mentioned already, "breakers" should be "beakers". That last error occurs several more times throughout the article as well.

Apart from the nitpicking, though, many thanks to Solver for a wonderful preview, you're making us all drool with anticipation! Very much appreciated!