Apolyton CIVILIZATION IV PREVIEW (by MarkG)

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
You have them to Cross NORMAL borders Alva, and thus to collect info and sabotage nations who are not quite 'friends', but not quite enemies. To me, closed borders represent a complete crack down on ALL comings and goings, such as what we see in North Korea, wheras a normal border represents something like what exists between the US and Canada-where Canada COULD send across spies and missionaries-without America's knowledge, but where any of their settlers or military units would be turned around and sent back home.
An open border would be a 'free-for-all', where anyone can cross at any time, and you get LOTS of extra trade in the bargain !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Maybe it can be modded in

[alva]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
You have them to Cross NORMAL borders Alva, and thus to collect info and sabotage nations who are not quite 'friends', but not quite enemies. To me, closed borders represent a complete crack down on ALL comings and goings, such as what we see in North Korea, wheras a normal border represents something like what exists between the US and Canada-where Canada COULD send across spies and missionaries-without America's knowledge, but where any of their settlers or military units would be turned around and sent back home.
An open border would be a 'free-for-all', where anyone can cross at any time, and you get LOTS of extra trade in the bargain !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Well, even we do want to walk the realism path...
I doubt the Sovjets wanted western spies in the USSR yet they were still there and I'm pretty sure there's some in NK too at the moment(and vice-versa).
There's no such thing as a complete closed borders, not even in wars.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Locutus
That is unpossible to do.

Me fail English?!?!

Not completely unpossible. Just not something you can do if you just do it the easiest, simplest way possible. Obviously, there are cases where things will clash, but you can set up the environment in such a way that two mods that apply to the same thing might both be in effect or you could at least detect a conflict. It could not be 100% due to the theoretical limits of what can be computed, but a well-designed packaging system would make it much easier to mix and match like I suggest. It's a little too long a shot to hope for One Perfect Mod, after all, but I can feel pretty optimistic about creating my own Frankenstein version that hits the sweet spot. I just don't want it to be so much work to create and maintain.

[Aro]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
You have them to Cross NORMAL borders Alva, and thus to collect info and sabotage nations who are not quite 'friends', but not quite enemies. To me, closed borders represent a complete crack down on ALL comings and goings, such as what we see in North Korea, wheras a normal border represents something like what exists between the US and Canada-where Canada COULD send across spies and missionaries-without America's knowledge, but where any of their settlers or military units would be turned around and sent back home.
An open border would be a 'free-for-all', where anyone can cross at any time, and you get LOTS of extra trade in the bargain !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Excellent.

But...
IMHO, open borders shouldn't allow military units at all. In your example (Canada and USA), they have open borders, but they can't send military. Not without asking politely... Exceptions opened for vacancies.
This (military walking around) could be done by a special agreement, something like a "military pass", and the number and kind of units allowed should be specified. The kind of thing you only do to best friends. Maybe too much micromanagement?
Anyway, modders: I would love a three-state border... And a lot of folks here!

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Ahhh, but Canada and the US have NORMAL borders-not Open Borders-meaning they CAN'T send units across.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Solver
The problem with a trade-only open borders state would IMO still be the lack of a downside. That would make it a no-brainer. You sign that, you get better trade and no downsides. Bah!

The way it is now, if you want the attitude and economy boost that comes from opening borders, you have to also accept the AI units, including their Missionaries, roaming your lands.

If that is any comfort, I haven't seen the AI use its Open Borders to send a Settler through all your land to settle on the 2 free tiles on the other end of the continent, like in Civ3.

But it still can't settle in your land, even if you have open borders?

I like that. If you want isolationism, you don't have to worry about silly AI, but it has downsides (but since you can trade resources with them, anyway, it's not that crippling).

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Solver
If that is any comfort, I haven't seen the AI use its Open Borders to send a Settler through all your land to settle on the 2 free tiles on the other end of the continent, like in Civ3.

You mean no free Workers for me?

[nbarclay]

It seems to me that open borders should allow non-military units through but not military ones. Sending military units through should require a separate, special agreement. That would leave the problem that if you open your borders for trade, missionaries could take advantage of the situation to convert your cities and settlers and workers might move through your territory if they have a reason to. But it would not create the extremely unrealistic situation of being unable to open borders for trade while still expecting the other nation's military to stay on its own side of the border. (Not that realism is my ultimate touchstone, but I don't see sufficient gameplay and strategic advantages to an "all or nothing" approach to justify the unrealism.)

[Nikolai]

I just came to think of one thing: If you have slave workers(that's what the "foreign" workers are after all), and abolish slavery, will those be freed then? And what does happen with them? Will they become normal workers or just disappear? And then what happens in later wars when you capture them? PoWs?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I just came to think of one thing: If you have slave workers(that's what the "foreign" workers are after all), and abolish slavery, will those be freed then? And what does happen with them? Will they become normal workers or just disappear? And then what happens in later wars when you capture them? PoWs?

nothing of this happens

you CAN capture workers though (but you cant differentiate them from your own)

[Solver]

I like that. If you want isolationism, you don't have to worry about silly AI, but it has downsides (but since you can trade resources with them, anyway, it's not that crippling).

You can isolate yourself all you wish and try to play a game like that. I'm not sure it's the best approach though.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by MarkG
nothing of this happens

you CAN capture workers though (but you cant differentiate them from your own)

Hmmm.... Interesting... So there's no difference between your workers and your enemy's? That should make it much more worthwhile to capture them I'd guess.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Actually guys, I do have a few minor questions which occured to me when I saw the Gamespy preview:

1) Does fresh water still generate +2 health as it did in the early days-or has that been changed?

2) How does cultural assimilation now work, given that you don't have seperate 'pop heads'?

3) What are the minimum and maximum number of gold and food that a coastal tile can produce? In a shot of the city screen, it showed 1 food and 3 gold each-but it didn't indicate if this was the starting amount or the potential amount. If the former, did either of you find this overpowering?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Solver]

1) Fresh water generates health
2) Uhh... it works . As seen in the screenshots, you can mouseover a tile to see its culture percentage, or whatever you want to call it. Based on culture, the entire system works well, but the best explanation for it would be to see it in action.
3) Uhm.... can't remember anyway. Where's the shot you're talking about? The city screen shows the current yield of the plot I'm sure, but there are, of course, ways to increase that output.

Coastal cities are interesting. They can work those coastal tiles which aren't bad for commerce, but as you see in that shot, they don't generate any shields. Thus, many coastal cities may be very poor for production.

[sabrewolf]

4 things to mark:

1) you mention the "surrender" diplomacy option from SMAC. can you explain that to the few of us who never played SMAC?

2) C++ SDK? so with the python SDK? without going into too much (NDA restricted) detail: what does what?

3) you should add a news item at http://civilization4.net/ for your (and soon solver's) review

4) you lucky bastards