Based On What We Know: Rate Civ 4

[Harovan]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
is that enough for you to drop from #2 down to #3 or #4?

Yep. It's a gamebreaking feature for me.

I can accept other opinions and will not argue, even though I am not granted the same right by some here.

As for melodramatic, well, maybe I overreacted, but I am ****ing disappointed, that a game, which looked like the epitome of awesomeness back in this morning now looks like... something still neat... with a big fat "BUT". Like an otherwise beautiful woman with a huge wart in her face. You get my analogy. Oh well, I guess it was bound to lose its virginity at some point. It was too good to be true. Civ4 Conquests.

I still hope I can mod out this abomination, but I guess the whole AI is geared towards it, which makes even that not an option.

[Solver]

Oh well... I think it will be moddable, though. Probably.

However, remember that, as bad as it might sound to you, you'll have to play the game to see how it actually impacts the game. It's impossible to judge the effect of features without playing.

And think of the positive effects of that. You can put your troops in one tile with the troops of your ally, for a better combined arms effect.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Solver
And think of the positive effects of that. You can put your troops in one tile with the troops of your ally, for a better combined arms effect.

But are they actually allies? The wording here so far has been units of civs you're not at war with, which IMO wouldn't be acceptable. If there were a special relationship between my civ and the other, like the Pacts in SMAC, I could see it. Otherwise no, it wouldn't leave me able to control my borders.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Solver
And think of the positive effects of that. You can put your troops in one tile with the troops of your ally, for a better combined arms effect.

I am aware of this and already mentioned twice, that this is the only reason why I could grudgingly accept it. I only sincerely hope, that I can this way help defending the cities of an ally, i.e. enter them with my troops SMAC style. Otherwise this feature would be wortless.

[Solver]

Otherwise no, it wouldn't leave me able to control my borders.

How not? Your borders are your borders. No one can enter your lands without declaring war.

Ralph - you can enter allied cities with your defenders .

[Harovan]

Well, that at least changes my opinion about it from to .

[Solver]

Well, at least that's good.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Solver

Otherwise no, it wouldn't leave me able to control my borders.

How not? Your borders are your borders. No one can enter your lands without declaring war.

Ralph - you can enter allied cities with your defenders .

Well I'm still thinking in terms of Civ 3 here. Physically blocking units was the only way to control units from crossing. If that has changed, I'll be very pleased.

BTW, have you had a chance to fool around with the editor? Is it more flexible than the Civ 3 version, about the same, or will we have to use the XML files for most of our changes? I'd prefer to use a GUI for most of my modding, rather than go through umpteen text files entries ala Civ2/SMAC.

[Solver]

As the preview and the other thread stated, if you don't want other civs crossing your borders, you can prevent that. So there would be no need to physically guard them with units.

I don't think the Civ3 and the Civ4 are comparable at all as far as mods go. Civ3 had a map editor and an excuse for a rules editor that basically allowed you to change numbers, while the XML and Python files in Civ4 allow you to change much more than the Civ3 editor. I haven't touched the Civ4 map editor at all, though - looking at screenshots of it will give you a better idea than I could do myself!

[Willem]

[SIZE=1] I haven't touched the Civ4 map editor at all, though - looking at screenshots of it will give you a better idea than I could do myself!

So it is just a map editor then, no real ability for rule changes like in Civ3. I kind of got that impression looking at the screenies. Oh well, I guess I'll be wading through a bunch of text files again. Hopefully the game will be good enough as is that I won't feel compelled to change a lot.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Well, he mentions both XML (which is, I imagine, similar to the Civ3:Conquests Editor) and Python (which is the ability to effectively 'rewrite' many of the rules-as well as incorporate 'scripted events'. Add to this the SDK coming out at years end, which will allow us to add entirely new rules and concepts, and alter the AI as much as we want. So, I think we can safely assume that we will getting MUCH more than a map editor this time around!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yep. It's a gamebreaking feature for me.

Yeah, that's melodrama.

No, it doesn't break the game, as far as it is known. Since lots of people have been playing it so far and this hasn't "broken" the game, I don't see how you can be in a position to assert this, since you haven't played it.

What it's done has scrapped one of your favorite strategies. Well, boohoo, a lot of the new features are doing that for me and everyone else. That's part of it being a new game, not just an upgrade. You'll adapt and learn to play differently.

So back off the pessimism and wait until you've played the game, at least, to whine and gnash teeth over a feature. I just don't understand getting so upset over something that isn't even a core aspect of Civ gameplay.

[yin26]

Hey, I'm the King Pessimist here! All other whiners must back off by order of the court!

(I actually like this change, frankly. And all this optimism has started to turn my skin strange colors...sort of flesh tones now.)

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hey Yin, for my part I couldn't care less if you eat part of the Civ4 box or not. Just to hear you sound upbeat and optimistic is reward enough for me . Hopefully we can all organise an Apolyton MP pitboss game sometime !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[yin26]

Thanks, Aussie_Lurker. I haven't played MP TBS since the SMAC days, so this could be fun. I don't know yet, either, if I'll be eating cardboard. Markos admits he's pretty happy just fooling around, and Solver has also admitted he doesn't like to exploit games. But I think I've seen enough to understand that ICS is harder to do now, and that's something important. Combat still being dull I have no news on yet.

Nevertheless, the core work on the game seems quite good. It's hard not to say the production values are high. Most of all, going for MP and modding from the outset is exactly the right approach. No matter what Firaxis designs, the ultimate tests are against other human players and, often, using interesting mods that other players have created. But Ages of Man has also shown me that the right mod tools can also translate to a much better SP game, and that's where I plan to spend most of my time.

Frankly, perhaps only the next Heroes of Might and Magic game might steal Civ time away any day soon. Have you seen some of that game?:



Oh, I'll also continue to work with Stan and the crew on Ages of Man for as long as Stan is willing to keep trying things. So, as you can see, TBS goodness for years to come! (Still hoping I won't need to eat cardboard, though...)