Atheism and religion

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Re: Re: Atheism and religion

Originally posted by sophist
Atheist and non-theist are two different things.

No the aren't. The Greek prefix "A" means "Without." So "Atheism" literally means "without belief in god(s)," which is the same as "non-theist." The notion that atheism must denote an active disbelief in deities is false.

I think the best way to implement the move from religious dominance to secular societies is to have governments become less reliant on religious motivations as time goes on. The current government model seems to accomodate that. Also, religiously-oriented wonders and buildings should diminish in effect for more secular societies. I'm not sure if that will be the case.

Come to think of it, I do think it would be okay to include "nonbelievers" as a late-developing "religious" group. I hope it's something that can easily be modded into the game.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by lajzar
I'd agree with teh idea that they were a theocratic state. Yes, they suppressed religions. That is, they suppressed *other* religions. And show me a theocratic state that did not suppress other religions. The religion they proposed, for want of a better word, might be termed sovietism, but dont hold me to that term.

Would you also call the Third Reich a theocratic state that worshiped Nazism?

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by lajzar
I'd agree with teh idea that they were a theocratic state. Yes, they suppressed religions. That is, they suppressed *other* religions. And show me a theocratic state that did not suppress other religions. The religion they proposed, for want of a better word, might be termed sovietism, but dont hold me to that term.

I've heard that before, and I don't buy it for a second. Communism is NOT a religion! Communism was all about removing religion from society altogether and making society atheist.

And speaking of atheism, I'd like to see a mod in Civ 4 that included atheism, though it should be done in such a way that you wouldn't end up with an atheist holy city! That would be a bit of a contradiction!

[lajzar]

True, they never claimed to be a religion, but they performed all the functions of a religion. If it looks like a duck...

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by lajzar
True, they never claimed to be a religion, but they performed all the functions of a religion. If it looks like a duck...

Did they have people likes priests/rabbis? Did they have a prayer book? Did they have a religious garment? Did they claim that Stalin was anything more than a man? I think not.

They were just practicing extreme nationalism.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
Did they claim that Stalin was anything more than a man? I think not.

Well...

[lajzar]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear


Did they have people likes priests/rabbis? Did they have a prayer book? Did they have a religious garment? Did they claim that Stalin was anything more than a man? I think not.

They were just practicing extreme nationalism.

If all that is required for a religion, then the Scandinavians of the 10th century and the more modern Quakers also had no religion (no priests). Neither did the Aztecs (no prayer books), or Celts (no specifically religious garments).

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by lajzar


If all that is required for a religion, then the Scandinavians of the 10th century also had no religion (no priests). Neither did the Aztecs (no prayer books), or Celts (no specifically religious garments).

I was just using those as examples. And being as though Communism in the Soviet Union didn't have all three of those, I fail to see how it's a religion. Another thing that's common in religion is alters/sacrifices. I don't think that the Soviet Union had that either.

[lajzar]

I know someone will flame me for this, but let's compare Sovietism with the Quakers...

Priests
Quakers take turns leading small religious groups in their homes. No one has any more religious authority than any one else. One of the crucial testimonies of Friends is that the grace of God can be received directly by any person without the need for any human intermediary such as priest or pastor.

This has changed slightly in the last few decades, but remained perfectly true until at least the first half of the 20th century in all groups of Quakers.

The Soviet Communist party hierarchy, especially 'loyalty officers' placed in factories and military units, maintained 'religious' orthodoxy. 'Priests' are present.

Text
Quakers have the Bible as their core text, and their aversion to dgmas discourages other texts being adopted. Even the Bible isn't regarded as the be-all and end-all.

Soviets have das Kapital, and presumably a few other writings too.

Garments
Quakers have no set garments. That guy on the oatmeal box is nothing more than normal contemporary dress from when the product was first made.

Soviets have no set garments.

Sacrifice
Other than spending time at Quaker meetings and living a particular way of life, there is no meaningful sacrifice for quakers.

Sovietism encouraged extremes of personal self-sacrifice for the greater good of the 'people'.

Altars
Neither group has altars.

Judging from these criteria, the gap is slim, but it wuld seem that Sovietism has more right to be described as religiou than Quakerism. Which of course proves nothing, nless you wish to claim that Quakerism is not a religion.

nb: Quakerism is a religion.

[Tassadar500]

What seperates Quakerism and Sovietism is a belief in a God and afterlife.

"Sovietism encouraged extremes of personal self-sacrifice for the greater good of the 'people'."

Self-sacrifice has nothing to do with sacrificing a lamb, or burning spices.

This is a definition of religion.

"religion

n 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny"

Stalin was the Dear Leader of the People, but could not control human destiny, nor did he have supernatural powers.

[lajzar]

Want me to do the same for Daoism then? No sacrifices (other than way of life), no afterlife. No supernatural powers (the gods they have are noted as being allegorical rather than literal). No spices need be burnt either.

Oh, Quakers don't even burn spices. By your rules, they don't sacrifice at all.

Religion is such a broad field that almost any attempt to define it will leave out one or more.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by lajzar
Want me to do the same for Daoism then? No sacrifices (other than way of life), no afterlife. No supernatural powers (the gods they have are noted as being allegorical rather than literal). No spices need be burnt either.

Oh, Quakers don't even burn spices. By your rules, they don't sacrifice at all.

Religion is such a broad field that almost any attempt to define it will leave out one or more.

I consider Daoism as more of a philosphy, then a religion.

The sacrifice I'm talking is the act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or human, or the burning on spices. If that isn't part of the Quaker religion, then they don't have sacrifice as part of their religion.

[lajzar]

Just so we're clear, could you give me your complete definition of a religion? Because I don't want to argue against a moving target.

ps: I hope you've written to Firaxis to complain about Daoism being included as a religion.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by lajzar
Just so we're clear, could you give me your complete definition of a religion? Because I don't want to argue against a moving target.

ps: I hope you've written to Firaxis to complain about Daoism being included as a religion.

Religion is a belief in a supernatural entity/entities that is infinitely more powerful than a human, can control human destiny, and is/are the creator(s) of the universe. That's what I just thought of on the spot, so don't try to catch me through loopholes.

ps: I have not, as it doesn't bother me that much.

[Xorbon]

Could the difference be that religions are based on metaphysics, while ideas like Communism aren't? Religions seem to have one thing in common: they explain how the world works. Communism doesn't do that as far as I can tell.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (Though I'm sure you would even without my permission. )