Atheism and religion

[MxM]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Oh, please

I'm an atheist, and I oppose the idea.

As was expected, some people would complain that their precious little faith doesn't belong to the list of 7 religions. I'm sure there are Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Shinto and Animists who feel as insulted as you are that their religion isn't in.

Integrating every religion/spirituality is the best way to lose focus in a quagmire of PC-ness

I am not talking about integrating all religions. I am talking about defining what are the major ones.

The whole XX century (or at least very big portion of it) was around difference of the ideologies, about cold war, about Soviet Block vs NATO. Atheistic Marksist ideology is a big part of it. This can not be imitated with religion. Yet it is very similar to religion. So it can be introduced into game as type of religion, which became an option close to the end of the tech tree.

PS. I am not saying that Soviet ideology is the only atheistic ideology. Similar to the situation with different religions, this is one of the possible atheistic ideologies, and it is just a great example of what kind of influence non-religious ideology can have.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Dis
isn't atheism a relatively recent phenomenon? Perpahs 19th century or so when science really began to kick into high gear.

No- you'll find serious discussions of atheism amongst classical Greek philosophers.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by MxM
The whole XX century (or at least very big portion of it) was around difference of the ideologies, about cold war, about Soviet Block vs NATO.

.., this is one of the possible atheistic ideologies, and it is just a great example of what kind of influence non-religious ideology can have.

this is exactly the sort of thing civ4 seems to allow for

although it probably won't ship with the game, a cold war scenario should be quite easy to set up. make a few changes to the tech tree and voila! once you discover communism, you can set up the holy city for the eternal church of the socialist redeemer.

one of the interviews actually said they were having to tone down the religious system because allowing line-of-sight into converted cities was too powerful. we'll have to wait and see how it plays out, but the possibilities for ideological warfare are looking good.

[AeonOfTime]

@lebensraum: put simply, a theocratic police state is one where all is right with the world. the people worship and obey me. they cower in fear before me. they offer up their beating hearts to be sacrificed before the altar of my greatness.

Aaaaah, thanks for the enlightment - I can see why this kind of state appeals to you I'll try to remember avoiding any territories you might be running for head of state then...

[sophist]

Originally posted by MxM

And during WW2 people in USSR were giving there lives and LOTS of the lives with the words "for Motherland, for Stalin!" motivated by ideology of USSR.

The society in USSR was extremely ideologic (I would say religious, if we were talking about religion, but we are talking about form of atheism here). And people did perceive themselves as a group, as Soviet Block, due to this ideology.

Basically right now there is no way in civ to imitate cold war, because there is no way to introduce anything similar to atheistic Marksist - Lenin ideology.

You think that they were doing it for Stalin? They were doing it for their country. That's a big difference.

I think you over-estimate how much the average people bought into the ideology. If they really did buy that much into it, the Russian Orthodox wouldn't have survived, Kruschev wouldn't have denounced Stalin just 3 years after his death, and the USSR would be alive and kicking today.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by AeonOfTime
I'll try to remember avoiding any territories you might be running for head of state then...

we also deliver,..

[Aro]

Originally posted by sophist


You think that they were doing it for Stalin? They were doing it for their country. That's a big difference.

I think you over-estimate how much the average people bought into the ideology. If they really did buy that much into it, the Russian Orthodox wouldn't have survived, Kruschev wouldn't have denounced Stalin just 3 years after his death, and the USSR would be alive and kicking today.

Very controversial.

In fact, there're fanatic stalinists all around the world today. . A lot in Russia. Not all of them are old men or women.

[MxM]

Originally posted by sophist
You think that they were doing it for Stalin? They were doing it for their country. That's a big difference.

They did it for both. Most of the people loved Stalin. It was inseparable in their minds.

Originally posted by sophist
I think you over-estimate how much the average people bought into the ideology. If they really did buy that much into it, the Russian Orthodox wouldn't have survived, Kruschev wouldn't have denounced Stalin just 3 years after his death, and the USSR would be alive and kicking today.

The Russian Orthodox Church has survived through the minority. Really minor minority.
Kruschev did not "denounced" Stalin, but softly talked about some "overdones" and "overbends".
And communists could have come back into power with Zuganov (sp?) and communist party in 1996 (not exactly sure about the year) election, if not for very good TV campaign of Yeltsin and co. not without some professional campaigning help from the "West". And that was despite of the state owned TV, which made the campaigning for Yeltsin very easy and hard for communist opposition! Plus that was after 5 or more years of non-communist government!

[sophist]

Originally posted by MxM
And communists could have come back into power with Zuganov (sp?) and communist party in 1996 (not exactly sure about the year) election, if not for very good TV campaign of Yeltsin and co. not without some professional campaigning help from the "West". And that was despite of the state owned TV, which made the campaigning for Yeltsin very easy and hard for communist opposition! Plus that was after 5 or more years of non-communist government!

5 years of a miserable, corrupt non-communist government. You don't need ideology to explain that; the average person's seemed worse than it was under communism, so they wanted to go back.

[Addled Platypus]

any care to join my church of

"whats happening now"

[MxM]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
any care to join my church of

"whats happening now"

Sign me in...

[MxM]

Originally posted by sophist
5 years of a miserable, corrupt non-communist government. You don't need ideology to explain that; the average person's seemed worse than it was under communism, so they wanted to go back.

Well, it is true that by the end of the century communist loosed people minds. This probably was one of the main reasons of USSR self-destruction.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by lebensraum
put simply, a theocratic police state is one where all is right with the world. the people worship and obey me. they cower in fear before me. they offer up their beating hearts to be sacrificed before the altar of my greatness.

eg. 1
ancient egypt (not necessarily a police state) - the ruler was considered to be an embodiment of god.
eg. 2
holy roman empire - the ruler was not considered an embodiment of god, but was appointed by divine authority. and as for the methods of policing... ahhh those were the days
eg. 3
ussr - acceptable religious practice was determined by the state and enforced by security agents

Are you calling the USSR a 'theocratic police state'?! They were a police state, but they were the opposite of theocratic. I wouldn't call a state that suppresses religion a theocratic state!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MxM

They did it for both. Most of the people loved Stalin. It was inseparable in their minds.

Unfortunately true. I recall reading the memoirs of people who had survived the labour camps, some who had been wrongly arrested, and also some reported testimony from some of the show trials.

What struck me as most bizarre, was that people who would otherwise have been highly intelligent, motivated members of any society, had been transformed by the cult of Stalin's personality into individuals who, although they knew logically they had not comitted the crimes they were suspected or accused of, believed they were guilty because Comrade Stalin could only be right.


Of course the same thing happens again in China's Cultural Revolution. The sheep look up.....

[lajzar]

Originally posted by Xorbon


Are you calling the USSR a 'theocratic police state'?! They were a police state, but they were the opposite of theocratic. I wouldn't call a state that suppresses religion a theocratic state!

I'd agree with teh idea that they were a theocratic state. Yes, they suppressed religions. That is, they suppressed *other* religions. And show me a theocratic state that did not suppress other religions. The religion they proposed, for want of a better word, might be termed sovietism, but dont hold me to that term.