Atheism and religion

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by MxM


This is good argument of why religions should be included into the game, but not why atheism should be excluded.

Different religions and atheism are ideologies. They answer the same questions and have similar influences on human choses. So IMHO atheism should be considered on the level with other ideologies. Why, say Taoism should be included into the game and atheism not?


And now day religion is not?

If you think that atheism is only modern ideology, then it would mean that it should come later in the game.

Atheism can never be the same motivator as any other form of theistic religion is.

Lets think it over:
"Lets build the Colossus or the wrath of Zeus will come over us and will give us 100 years of pain"

or

"Lets build pyramids in the Glory of our holy God Horus"

or

"And therefore we, the High Priests of YHWE declare, that everyone should give us one tenth of everything they earned or harvested during the year or they will be condemned to hell"

In all these cases the people would be highly motivated to fulfill the wishes of their priests because the belief in Gods really granting them (eternal) rewards for the things they do or really punishing them for the things they don´t do according to the wishes of their gods will be a high motivator.

I really doubt that an atheistic society will be able to have such a strong influence on its members as a religious does.

Hm lets see:
"Lets build a giant Statue of Stalin or our great leader will be unhappy"

Nope, wouldn´t motivate me the same way as the wrath or rewards of a god would

As for another example:
Look at the suicide bombers of Al Quaida.
I doubt that you will find so many people willing to give up their life in a suicide attack in an atheistic society as you do in a highly religious society.

So for me it´s O.K. if an atheistic society doesn´t get the benefits a religious one has.

[Dis]

isn't atheism a relatively recent phenomenon? Perpahs 19th century or so when science really began to kick into high gear.

[Spiffor]

Oh, please

I'm an atheist, and I oppose the idea.

As was expected, some people would complain that their precious little faith doesn't belong to the list of 7 religions. I'm sure there are Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Shinto and Animists who feel as insulted as you are that their religion isn't in.

Integrating every religion/spirituality is the best way to lose focus in a quagmire of PC-ness

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Oh, please


Integrating every religion/spirituality is the best way to lose focus in a quagmire of PC-ness

thank you

pc-ness can be the death of democracy, if we are not carefull

[Terra Nullius]

Re: Atheism and religion

Originally posted by MxM
Do you think it is strange not to have atheism in the game which has all major religions?

1) no. atheism is not a religion. it is a philosophy.

2) atheist religions are in the game.
buddhism
taoism
confucianism?

3) atheism is also in the game as a civic choice. you can set various parameters under civic options. so you can choose to govern a secular society, or live in a
theocratic police state!!!

[Terra Nullius]

re: 1) actually, i take that back. atheism is an axiom.

Different religions and atheism are ideologies. They answer the same questions and have similar influences on human choses.

atheism does not answer any questions whatsoever

if you assume "that god does not exist," you can go on develop many different answers to the question. just because two people assume that god does not exist should not suggest that they believe the same thing.

isn't atheism a relatively recent phenomenon?

that's a very interesting comment. western secular society is a recent phenomenon. but then, organised state religions weren't created on the first day either.

civ is about building a story. maybe the developers have made the decision that atheism is something you have to acheive, not something you can have from day one. it may be an arbitrary decision to do it that way, but it makes sense in terms of historical precedent.

[sophist]

Re: Re: Atheism and religion

Originally posted by lebensraum
2) atheist religions are in the game.
buddhism
taoism
confucianism?

Atheist and non-theist are two different things. The above, afaik, neither affirm nor deny the existence of the divine.

[ajbera]

I wonder if there is an option in the religious civics governing atheism. After all, wasn't the state position of the USSR that there was no God? So this may be a civics option.

Second, you can probably mod in an eighth "secular humanism" type of "faith", based on a modern (say 19th century) tech, like Enlightenment or something. While not a "faith" per se (though others may argue the point), it operates similar to one. I also would like to see an atheist/agnostic option, but if it isn't included as a civics option, I'm just gonna add it as described above.

[AeonOfTime]

@lebensraum: theocratic police state

Errrm, this is probably a little offtopic here, but I've been dying to ask you what a theocratic police state is? I couldn't find any direct definition - what advantages would you get with such a state?

[Terra Nullius]

dahhling!!

but of course. make yourself comfortable. come into my parlour,..

[IMG]C:\Data\My Pictures\imaiden01.jpg[/IMG]

it was something from the e3 interview. i still don't get how the civics are supposed to work, but there are two options involved. one has to do with religious (freedom?) and the other represents (civic?) freedom.

so, firstly, you can choose to govern a free-lovin' democracy, or a repressive police state. i guess it's similar to the fascism/democracy government choices from previous versions.

the other civic option determines your religious attitude. you can set up a secular society where everyone is free to practice their own religion (if any), or you can - encourage - the populace to practice devotion of a more "state-sponsored" nature.

at a guess, this will affect your ability to convert other civs, their ability to convert your people, their attitude towards you and the nature of their eternal damnation. converting a foriegn city brings cash into your economy, so it may also affect how that cash is collected.

put simply, a theocratic police state is one where all is right with the world. the people worship and obey me. they cower in fear before me. they offer up their beating hearts to be sacrificed before the altar of my greatness.

eg. 1
ancient egypt (not necessarily a police state) - the ruler was considered to be an embodiment of god.
eg. 2
holy roman empire - the ruler was not considered an embodiment of god, but was appointed by divine authority. and as for the methods of policing... ahhh those were the days
eg. 3
ussr - acceptable religious practice was determined by the state and enforced by security agents

what advantages would you get with such a state?

none darling, none whatsoever.

i hold this position only for the good of my oppressed people.

and anyway, why would you want to conquer your enemies when, with a slightly more enlightened government, you can devour their souls instead?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Oh, please

I'm an atheist, and I oppose the idea.

As was expected, some people would complain that their precious little faith doesn't belong to the list of 7 religions. I'm sure there are Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Shinto and Animists who feel as insulted as you are that their religion isn't in.

Integrating every religion/spirituality is the best way to lose focus in a quagmire of PC-ness

QFT^QFT

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


Hm lets see:
"Lets build a giant Statue of Stalin or our great leader will be unhappy"

well, technically that is persona-worshipping... which is a form of religion.

[Datajack Franit]

Just throw religion into the game (religion, not A religion) and have the users play with it

[Impaler[WrG]]

Im not realy for or against this idea, I agree their are plenty of religions not covered in Civ 4 and it would be interesting to include a boader group. The desision to use 7 was a game play choice. Presumably though that should realy be effected by the numberof players and 7 is the optimum for an average sized game, isnt too many for a small game and isn't too few for a large game. But if your playing a full blown 19 then it might be nice to inculde some extra religions. We in the Civ comunity could do some Moding to this effect but Athiesm wouldn't be my first choice to include though.

Athism as a Religion would need a Tec to connect too, most likly something assosiated with Greek Philosopy. It would obviously give a bonus to Research.

I think it would be much cooler to see Greeko-Roman Mythology as a Religion perhaps called "Helenism" or "Olympism".

After that I would like to see Protestentism pop up in the Middle Ages (wonder if theirs a way to force it to occur in a Cristian Empire), its definatly had a big impact on history.

[MxM]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


Atheism can never be the same motivator as any other form of theistic religion is.

Lets think it over:
"Lets build the Colossus or the wrath of Zeus will come over us and will give us 100 years of pain"

or

"Lets build pyramids in the Glory of our holy God Horus"

or

"And therefore we, the High Priests of YHWE declare, that everyone should give us one tenth of everything they earned or harvested during the year or they will be condemned to hell"

In all these cases the people would be highly motivated to fulfill the wishes of their priests because the belief in Gods really granting them (eternal) rewards for the things they do or really punishing them for the things they don´t do according to the wishes of their gods will be a high motivator.

I really doubt that an atheistic society will be able to have such a strong influence on its members as a religious does.

Hm lets see:
"Lets build a giant Statue of Stalin or our great leader will be unhappy"

Nope, wouldn´t motivate me the same way as the wrath or rewards of a god would

As for another example:
Look at the suicide bombers of Al Quaida.
I doubt that you will find so many people willing to give up their life in a suicide attack in an atheistic society as you do in a highly religious society.

So for me it´s O.K. if an atheistic society doesn´t get the benefits a religious one has.

You can not be more wrong about this.
"Lets build a giant Statue of Stalin for our future generations and to show our greatness and advanced engineering skils"

And during WW2 people in USSR were giving there lives and LOTS of the lives with the words "for Motherland, for Stalin!" motivated by ideology of USSR.

The society in USSR was extremely ideologic (I would say religious, if we were talking about religion, but we are talking about form of atheism here). And people did perceive themselves as a group, as Soviet Block, due to this ideology.

Basically right now there is no way in civ to imitate cold war, because there is no way to introduce anything similar to atheistic Marksist - Lenin ideology.