Mali Delenda Est

[Jaybe]

May this thread rest in (relative) peace. It seemed to me to be mostly jabber to fill time waiting for real cIV news/discussion.

While the Mali perhaps ought to be destroyed, it would be severly disappointing should it occur while I am PLAYING them!
I marvel at yin26's post. The most reasoned, level-headed and non-negative posting from him I have read in a long time (I readily admit I haven't read all that I have seen).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Alexander01
While I appreciate the point of view of the pro-Mali side, I do not respond well to such belligerence and utter disregard for the opinions of others.

I'd like to point out that neither side is innocent in this regard. While you personally have remained very calm in this discussion, Archduke Newell definitely wasn't.
There's a documented phenomenon in internet debates called "polarization", where the positions of each side become more clear-cut as the debate proceeds. In the end, each side becomes more closed to the arguments of the other than at the beginning.
Archduke Newell fell in this trap, and in the end he spout complete ignorance on the Mali achievements (to him, they basically boiled down to one ivory mask). He also showed ignorance of today's Africa, as he wrongly considered the whole continent to be "war-torn... dirt poor... diseased... living in mud huts... and living off the largesse of larger nations who feel sorry for them". Any person who likes Africa would be offended by that.

You've accused me of not listening to your arguments. While I have heard every word you've said, all of my arguments have been ignored

I suppose this part is mostly aimed at Molly and Imran. As for myself, the reason why I didn't reply to you is because I disagreed with your premise. Civ shouldn't only include the "top 18", but should include urban civilizations in their variety. Such is my opinion, it is not yours, and no debate can lead anybody to change his mind on that premise.

"Diversity" is a cushy way of saying "politically correct."

I disagree. The aim of "Politically correct" is to not offend some group. When Microprose invented female leaders in Civ2, it was a good example of PC. When Firaxis includes an African Civ, it might be aimed at pleasing the black audience in western countries indeed (just like the inclusion of the French + Germans + English from the beginning has been aimed at pleasing these countries' audiences). However, it doesn't only please this target group. As you have seen in this thread, many fans are happy with the inclusion of Mali, and I strongly doubt they're all blacks (Imran and myself aren't, and I have strong supsicions that Molly isn't either).

The reason why I support Mali's inclusion is because I enjoy seeing very different Civilizations. To me, it adds to the playing experience.

Ivory masks and mud huts do not Wonders of the World make. I actually wanted to gain a greater knowledge of Malinese wonders that I supposed I might be ignorant of, but the information provided is still found wanting.

If you consider Timbuktu's university as a "mud hut", you won't consider it as a wonder indeed. If you consider Timbuktu's university as a project similar to Alexandria's Great Library, then maybe you'd be more open to think of it as a great achievement.

Mali is definitely a civilization and no one here has ever tried to say they are not. The entire premise of this thread has been to express the opinion that their accomplishments, though significant, are not on the same level as cultures such as Babylon, China, Persia, India, Egypt, or, yes, the Ottoman Empire.

I don't think anybody ever claimed the contrary.

Legitimate world civs will not be included in the initial version of Civ4 because of the inclusion of Mali (ie. Babylon, Ottomans, etc.).

This is, again, where I disagree. Though Mali didn't conquer as much as the Ottomans, though Mali hasn't first developed a technology that would be used worldwide, I do not think that it makes it less "legitimate" than the Ottomans. You consider such criteria to be what grants more or less "legitimacy" to a Civ. I do not. To me, the criteria a Civ needs to meet are agriculture, urbanism, division of labour, organized government (organized religion/spirituality is a plus). This is why I think most African tribes, while vibrant cultures, don't deserve inclusion in Civ. However, this is also the reason why I consider the Mali, the Ethiopians or the Khmer definitely deserve to be in. They're as "legitimate" as France or Germany in my book.

I find it absolutely disgusting that my attempts at reasonable conversation have been met with belligerence, arrogance, condescension and outright hostility. Perhaps some of the fault is mine, I don't know, but I do not appreciate this behavior.

This behaviour comes from the fact that quite a few posters here have been active for years in the Off-Topic "OT" forum, which is a den of sharks

[AeonOfTime]

@Alexander01: The Fertile Crescent is the Cradle of Civilization because that's where the oldest civilizations in the world developed (ie. Sumer). The Fertile Crescent consists of Mesopotamia, Canaan and the Levant. That includes Catal Huyuk and Jericho, the oldest cities on Earth.

Thanks for the clarification, now that you mention it I remember part of this from my early history classes. I did not make a difference between the cradle of civilization and the cradle of humanity

@Alexander01: Legitimate world civs will not be included in the initial version of Civ4 because of the inclusion of Mali (ie. Babylon, Ottomans, etc.)

You are right about that, but then I feel it would be a shame if Civ did not get a few refreshing changes like that from time to time. It's not like it never happened in the franchise before. Personally, I like the change because it is nice to have some new cultures and not always have the same base of civs. As Soren said, to make a sequel, you keep 1/3 of the original, improve 1/3 and add 1/3 new.

But that does not lessen your feelings about the mali, does it Then let's say, for argument's sake, that we all agree and the mali should not be in: we would have to face the fact, and use the game's promised modding capabilities to replace them with whatever civ we like.

Of course if we did not like having to edit the game to fit our needs, we would be in tough luck and would have to pass on this game in the Civ series and hope the next one will get it right.

Otherwise, I understand your position and that it is final.

[GeoModder]

't Was about time somebody started to wrap things up.

[Trifna]

I guess that the question all along is how we define "important enough civilization" when looking what goes in and what not.

Some might say that it is based on
"which civ actually succeeded and brought something in REAL history"
while some others come and say
"which civs are different enough from each other"

All arguments not situating themselves within this might bring big rounds and be lost in the mayhem, and I think that it is the definition which should be debated to get anywhere.

My 2 cents

[yin26]

This article hits on some of my themes, especially this line:

U.S. leadership remains essential, not simply because of the enormous ability of the United States to affect global developments, but also because the world will not organize itself effectively without American participation. But leadership requires followership, something that can only be engendered by a foreign policy that strives to get others to agree on the principles and rules of international relations and how they are to be enforced when they are violated.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-haas18jul18,0,3674944.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

And my "doomsday" prediction for this U.S. will really only be a dramatic one if it doesn't learn the lessons of followership...and followership requires an entire hosts of skills that the U.S. generally lacks in a bad way (foreign language and understanding of foreign cultures, for one).

[binTravkin]

As for pipsqueaks, I'm sure that's what Carthage said about Rome at the beginning too.

How I wish poly had a ROTFL smiley..

THE EU!!!??? What kind of drugs are you smoking? First off, have you seen their economy? Basket-case doesn't begin to describe it. Second, the state of their military! I mean, Canada could beat them! Their birthrate is far below replacement levels (ie. NEGATIVE!), so they try to mitigate that by allowing dangerous foreign nationals who want to kill them and take their land to immigrate into their heartlands!!!

I don't see how in the world the EU will ever surpass the US in the short run, or even the long run! They're not as strong as we are now, and they have negative potential. They were great in their day, but their day is OVER!!!

It is an unarguable and self-evident fact that France has been responsible for all the major world conflicts of the last 200 years.

but serious

I want a ROTFL smiley!

/me went to make a draft for petition..

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by Dis


monster truck rallies is culture.

and Civilization computer games !!

[Charles_Bronson]

Give mali's a chance.

[Mace]

Originally posted by Trifna
Some might say that it is based on
"which civ actually succeeded and brought something in REAL history"
while some others come and say
"which civs are different enough from each other"

Yes, good point. I have observed 7+ pages of interesting thread, much of which a lot of people posting here can't handle in a civil manner...

I generally come down on the side of "which civ actually succeeded and brought something to history"

Such a thing can be argued of the Malinese. However, it is my belief that if one is to narrow it to 18 civs, there are far more deserving civilizations that could be included out-of-the-box.

However, it's all a moot point, as we will be able to MOD any civ in (or OUT) we wish. 7 pages of a foregone conclusion...

[Xorbon]

I've just started a poll on this issue. Hopefully, people can be a little more civil on that thread than here.

[Jonny]

On topic:

Mali
That's all I've got to say...

Off topic, a very late response:

Originally posted by Aro
Talking about learn something...How should we say "Cathargo is destroyed"?

(sorry about my bad english )

Carthago deleta est.
I know a little bit of latin, so if your son (or you ) should ever need help, feel free to annoy me.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Mace
However, it's all a moot point, as we will be able to MOD any civ in (or OUT) we wish. 7 pages of a foregone conclusion...

Welcome to Internet forums

This thread has actually had more of a point, it has been actually more conclusive than most topics in the OT forum

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Ivory masks and mud huts do not Wonders of the World make.

Hmm, since when are the architecturally sophisticated mosques at Djenne and Timbuktu 'mud huts' ?

This is about as sensible as describing Scandinavian stave churches as a bunch of sticks, or St Pancras Station as a pile of bricks.

[Odin]

Originally posted by yin26
As a red-blooded American who just bought a Harley Davidson motorcycle, here's my view:

We have some *very* hard decades ahead of us as we learn to be #2 (then #3, #4?) in the world. We are already losing jobs and some of our leads in various industries are dropping rapidly. In other words, our Golden Age in some respects is declining.

However, if we learn to join forces with the world and adapt to realities, we can maintain an incredibly important position. But it will have to come with some hard lessons of humility and heaping doses of more respect and understanding for other countries and cultures. I do believe, though, that day will come...if slowly. Indeed, it's what I work on every day in my job and is the reason I lived in another country for 6 years learning a foreign language (Korean). I start Chinese language in the fall, also.

At the same point, the American resolve for fighting the good fight (at least when it's against a clear enemy and not something much harder to understand like terrorism) is and has been a wonder. I am speaking, of course, of WW2 -- to which we came very late and very unprepared, I understand.

But since WW2 (Korean War, Vietnam, now Iraq) as our understanding of the enemy has gotten worse and worse, so has our response, sadly. Thus, to the degree that we learn more about the world and our proper place it in, I think the American civilization will yet again prove one of the greatest ever.

This is especially so as long as some of the world's greatest minds continue to seek a life here enriching us financially and culturally.

I think the US's problem is that it's culture has become superficial, with pop culture more concerned about shocking people than anything else, and that people are generally becoming apathetic in national afairs (When election turnouts of 60% are considered a super-high turnout, you have a problem). The "Greatest American" series on the Discovry Channel a while ago shows the problem, People put REAGAN as the greatest American, ahead of LINCOLN, WASHINGTON, MLK, AND FRANKLIN! Dubya was 6th I beleive, tons of celeberties (including Michael Jackson ), and no people like Twain, Emmerson, etc