So what do we know about Civ IV so far?

[Roman]

I have been away from the boards for a while and am wondering about whether any information has been released or leaked or at least hinted at about Civ IV. Well, has it?

[Vince278]

Very little thats verifiable.

[Fosse]

We know there will be a 3d, tile-based map.
We know that "Civics" and "Religion" are being added, but don't know what that means.
We know that "unfun" elements (according to Soren) such as pollution and corruption are being either removed or signifigantly changed.
We know that there will be more emphasis on getting new fans than on pleasing the most hard core ones.
We know that an effort to make as much of the game modifiable by fans as possible is being made.



We learned all of this is Soren's presentation posted by Locutus in the Just the facts, ma'am thread a few weeks ago.

It's worth a read, and the comments at the bottom provide some insight to what Soren (the lead designer) is thinking.

[Dauphin]

Hasn't Mulitplayer been confirmed as being present from the get-go? (I have a hazy recollection of it being mentioned)

[Jon Shafer]

Yes, MP is also included.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Fosse
We know that there will be more emphasis on getting new fans than on pleasing the most hard core ones.

Thanks for the list. Everything looks interesting so far but something about the above quote bothers me. I wonder what they mean by that?

[Robert]

Yeah, MP was being confirmed for cIIIv as well.
It was one of the features listed onthe official cIIIv site as well, and the last couple of months no Firaxian ever mentioned MP anymore.
We begged for months to let them reveal something about MP, and suddenly the MP feature was gone from the mainpage.

How angry some people became
I'm sure that will not happen this time.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by Vince278


Thanks for the list. Everything looks interesting so far but something about the above quote bothers me. I wonder what they mean by that?

To interpret the Powerpoint, it means that more complex and realistic systems (ie, what the hard core Civ fans want) will not be included, and efforts will be made to make the game appeal to a broad audience (3D, cutting "unfun" parts of the game, new killer features).

It does sound ominous, and certainly some old fans won't like it (just as some Civ I didn't like II, and some II fans didn't like SMAC or III, just like always). But it doesn't have to mean a bad game. As long as "simplify for the masses" doesn't equate to "dumb down for the hordes" then we should be okay.

...and if they through in some more robust systems while they're at it....

[Dauphin]

If MP isn't in the I wouldn't buy it. The civ experience requires human opponents to enjoy the fun with, as such MP is essential.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Yeah, MP was being confirmed for cIIIv as well.
It was one of the features listed onthe official cIIIv site as well, and the last couple of months no Firaxian ever mentioned MP anymore.
We begged for months to let them reveal something about MP, and suddenly the MP feature was gone from the mainpage.

How angry some people became
I'm sure that will not happen this time.

Considering Soren said that they were playing 4+ hour MP games a couple months ago, I seriously doubt there won't be MP in Civ IV...

[Robert]

That's true

about cIv >> cIIv, as far as I can see nobody complained and all die-hard cIv fans loved cIIv as well.

[Roman]

Thanks for the facts Fosse - I will definitely give the link a read.

Originally posted by Fosse
We know there will be a 3d, tile-based map.

So this is staying the same as now - that is fair enough - the current system has been pretty good after all.

We know that "Civics" and "Religion" are being added, but don't know what that means.

It definitely sounds exciting!

We know that "unfun" elements (according to Soren) such as pollution and corruption are being either removed or signifigantly changed.

I sincerely hope they go with the 'significantly change' rather than 'remove' option. I consider these elements rather interesting and definitely not 'unfun'. Still, this kind of talk does portend anything good.

We know that there will be more emphasis on getting new fans than on pleasing the most hard core ones.

This sounds very, very bad - well at least from my perspective as a hard core fan.

We know that an effort to make as much of the game modifiable by fans as possible is being made.

Excellent - for me this is one of the more important issues. In fact a reason I mostly stayed away from Civ III was the deficiency in modding capability as compared to Civ II. That and the lack of multiplayer... Since Civ IV is to have both better modding capability and multiplayer (Hot Seat is a must for me, however, without Hot Seat I cannot play multiplayer since I do not have multiple computers or a network or the internet at home) it sounds promising.

We learned all of this is Soren's presentation posted by Locutus in the Just the facts, ma'am thread a few weeks ago.

Thanks - I will look through it.

[Roman]

Originally posted by Trip
Yes, MP is also included.

Woo Hoo!

I hope that includes Hot Seat!

[Roman]

Originally posted by Fosse
To interpret the Powerpoint, it means that more complex and realistic systems (ie, what the hard core Civ fans want) will not be included, and efforts will be made to make the game appeal to a broad audience (3D, cutting "unfun" parts of the game, new killer features).

Unfortunately I agree that this is the most likely interpretation.

It does sound ominous, and certainly some old fans won't like it (just as some Civ I didn't like II,

I don't know anyone who did not like Civ II even better than Civ I. I certainly loved that particular change. Civ II Gold Edition is still the pinnacle of the Civilization franchise IMHO.

and some II fans didn't like SMAC or III, just like always).

Well, yes, given the fact that Civ III lacked multiplayer and a good modding capability I was kind off put off despite the inclusion of exciting new features such as resources and culture which gave the game potential... but the lack of modding and MP was just too much of a disadvantage.

But it doesn't have to mean a bad game. As long as "simplify for the masses" doesn't equate to "dumb down for the hordes" then we should be okay.

You are right - it does not necessarily have to be a bad game. In fact, it will almost certainly be a good game - the question is, however, whether it will be better than its predecessors. On that it is too soon to tell, but the 'simplify for the masses' motto seems to foreshadow that there will be less for the hard core fans to look forward to. I hope, of course, that I am wrong on this matter. In principle, it is possible to build the game in such a way that is easy to learn but difficult to master - basically it would entail the mastery of some features of the game unnecessary to 'winning' a normal single player game, but would leave those features there for the hard core fans. That would be the best way to go and it may be that Firaxis will follow that route... too soon to tell.

[Roman]

Some more info from the presentation:

Modern interface/help conventions

Fair enough - interface can be important.

Continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)

Not sure what to make of this.

Drop unfun legacy (pollution, rioting, maintenance, corruption/waste)

That is dropping rather a lot! Pollution, rioting, maintenance and corruption/waste were all pretty nice to have but especially maintenance!

New killer features (religion, civics)

Well, that sounds good.

RPG elements (unit upgrades/experience)

Again sounds fair - though it already exists in the form of veterancy for units. I suppose they may be reworking how that works, which is Ok by me.

Coding from scratch (multiplayer, mod-friendly)

Fan content: we are keeping all game data in xml which will ensure that almost nothing will be hard-coded. Further, we are integrating Python into the code-base so that the more algorithmic parts of the game (map generation, combat, triggers/events, AI, etc.) can be scripted by the modding community.

What we are really excited about is being able to use the Civilization franchise as leverage to create an umbrella game system. The time pressure of Civ3 didn’t give us a chance to experiment with accessibility, fan-content, and multiplayer. Civ4 is very much a maturation of the franchise – we hope to see a corresponding qualitative difference in the size of our audience.

Multiplayer and mod-friendliness are very important, so this is highly positive.