Why do Navies suck so badly in Civ?

[joncha]

I liked the fast move along rivers in Civ2, but I didn't really miss it in Civ3 (those first few games took a little getting used to, though).

I can understand concerns about adding canoe/barge/river-boat casino style units as being unnecessary.

What about restricting fast river movement to certain units, to better reflect how small rivers can be a bonus for smaller units (ie, those that can fit easily into canoes... in Civ3, say... scouts, warriors, explorers and their varients) and a hinderence for large ones (think mounted units, artillery, etc.)?

Civ2's emphasis was on the movement bonus rivers can give, Civ3's on the hinderence. Ideally, Civ 4 can allow for both.

jon.

[Carolus Rex]

Again, seems like a good suggestion!

Now we only need to get a real confirmation that Civ 4 is under way (or has there been one already?) so that all the discussions and ideas in this forum will amount to more than just +1's...

Carolus

[Kuciwalker]

We do have a real confirmation of C4.

EDIT: and what's wrong with +1's?

[asleepathewheel]

yeah what do you want? Firaxians confirmed it here and elsewhere. What more do you want, the estimated gold date?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker

3) Bring in CtP style 'trade routes' that you can actually attack or pirate!! This was the one element that I always felt CtP did better than the Civ series!!!

I don't think that worked very well since it made trade routes almost impossible to protect.

My way of doing this would be to allow trade routes much as they are now, but extend the ZOCs of ships so that they can blockade much more effectively. The traditional way to blockade can be done in Civ 3 but you need supplementary embargoes most of the time.

Or one could have some appalling algorithm that calculates relative city size and commerce and determines where the trade is going, thus giving sea lanes and land routes which can be blockaded/disrupted. Of course this would work much better if half of your commerce came from trade as it does in EU2.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I do agree with you, Agathon, that there were some problems with this system-mostly that the trade routes were too easy to attack! My personal opinion would be to make it a true 'attack'-in that you attack it in the same way as you might attack another naval unit, and give the trade route some kind of defense strength (one which increases with each new naval technology!)
Each time a naval vessel unsuccessfully attacks a trade route, it will lose a hp!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[POTUS]

That would probably work.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
I don't think that worked very well since it made trade routes almost impossible to protect.

My way of doing this would be to allow trade routes much as they are now, but extend the ZOCs of ships so that they can blockade much more effectively. The traditional way to blockade can be done in Civ 3 but you need supplementary embargoes most of the time.

Or one could have some appalling algorithm that calculates relative city size and commerce and determines where the trade is going, thus giving sea lanes and land routes which can be blockaded/disrupted. Of course this would work much better if half of your commerce came from trade as it does in EU2.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: GalCiv-style trade routes! I want the little freighter chugging along so I can KILL it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by skywalker

I've said it before and I'll say it again: GalCiv-style trade routes! I want the little freighter chugging along so I can KILL it.

Yeah, but that would take up a lot of processing power.

Here's a better idea, do it the Hearts of Iron way. That's similar to what I suggested.

[lajzar]

I think teh biggest problem with navies is the requirement to build transport ships. In ancient and medieval times, getting transports for your army was a matter of confiscating whatever merchants were in port. By modern times, shipbuilding tech is sufficiently advanced that getting transports is trivial.

Any city with an appropriate sea improvement should automatically generate a transport for any land unit that attempts to move to sea. this transport can only be directed to a friendly city, and will be AI controlled, and will vanish when the unit disembarks.

[lajzar]

How about replace the magnetism advance with "The Sextant". Sextants, together with clocks that could function on a moving platform, allowed ocean navigators to determine longitude for the first time. Before this, plotting longitude was done mostly by dead reckoning (we went west 5 days at 40 knots, so we must be somewhere around there by now), and very prone to error.

[cumi]

Ships should be much faster, should hit harder on land. Maybe, being able to sail in rivers, too.

The same situation for airforce, too.

Or, just to improve the AI's strategy with these units... In real life, there were wars, where the outcome was decided by the navy or airforce. In civ3 there is no chance for that, yet...

All this would make the game more colorful.

[AroSch]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
1) Generally double ALL Movement rates for naval units!

Hm, not sure, if that is an good idea. I don't like too early colonization. But if all ships have higer movement... May be it works together with point #2)

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
2) Give increased movement costs for moving on Sea and ocean tiles, then allow later naval vessels to ignore these movement costs!

They did it in Conquest. This seems to be the right way.

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
3) Bring in CtP style 'trade routes' that you can actually attack or pirate!! This was the one element that I always felt CtP did better than the Civ series!!!

Again I'm not sure. I didn't like the way they did it in CtP. Much much different varicoloured lines and dumb pathfinding for trade routes in CtP turned me mad. How about something similar: You need ships (at least one ship) for each naval trade route. This ship(s) are moving "automaticaly" between ports with higer (doubled?) speed and if it was attacked successful by pirates/enemy the traded good disapeares for one turn (ore longer).

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
4) Allow naval units to rebase between friendly coastal cities with a harbour or naval base, within a given range! This becomes especially important for balancing naval units against ground units after the RR is introduced.

May be this work, but I don't like it very much.

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
5) Allow for a tile improvement Naval Base tile improvement which can be placed on unclaimed islands or coastlines, to allow for speedy movement over the seas and oceans!!!

Agreed! Tile improvement "harbor" seems a good addition. This could be some kind of upgrade from (Civ3) coastal colonies, but it generate a one tile border. So it won't disappear if opponent's borders expand. But if the port is within enemy's territory (all neighbouring land tiles) he declares (automatical) war and you have to defend your harbor or you loose it.

Some other ideas:
6) Galleys (and Ironclads too) are "coastal ships". This sort of coastal ships should sink on ocean even if magnetism allready is discovered.

7) I wish to buid naval armys... called fleets. How about a naval leader or something like that for doing that?

9) There should be a order (also for AI use) "sea blockade". If a ship is following this order, no opposing tradegoods can pass within 1 field in each direction from this ship. I.E. if you take 2 ships, you may block a 6 tile sea lane without these (to) simple trade embargos. Works only, if you are at war with someone.

10) Loading artillery (means especially cannons for early sailing ships) in special rooms on ships could add +1 attack point or bombard ability, but lowers transport capacity.

11) Special(!) land units (boarding partys) loaded in ships can take other ships. Not sinking, they take it, if successful.

Just some basic ideas. Have to be polished.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by AroSch
*SNIP*
Again I'm not sure. I didn't like the way they did it in CtP. Much much different varicoloured lines and dumb pathfinding for trade routes in CtP turned me mad.
*SNIP*

The trade routes can be toggled off and the dumb pathfinding is now fixed (CTP2 Source Code project... thanks to MartinG)

[AroSch]

Originally posted by MrBaggins The trade routes can be toggled off and the dumb pathfinding is now fixed (CTP2 Source Code project... thanks to MartinG)

Oh, sorry, I don't own CtP2. I never bough it, becouse I was disappointed about CtP. I know, many things are fixed now, but there are still many features, wich I personally don't want in a Civ game. For example I don'tlike very much future age, space(?)- and oceanic cities or some of the unit abilities. Also I don't like very much the CtP graphics, wich are looking like plastic toys to me (okay, graphics are a minor point in civgames). Yes, they fixed the thumb AI, and some other things too, didn't they? May be CtP2 is now (with mods) a cool Civ game, but when Civ3 relased I bough it and liked it (apart from some smaller design mistakes). Now I'm hoping for a Civ4 with some more flavour.