Civilization 4's Unit Workshop

[FrostyBoy]

This time round I am not interested in just posting what I think should be added in Civ4, I do think that this is a waste of time and almost a pointless read for Firaxis.

If I were Firaxis, I would probably be much more keen on reading ideas that have been thoroughly thought through, explained very well and connected it with the actual gameplay essense of Civilization 4.



Since I am very interested in this Unit Workshop Idea, I am very willing to create graphics (Interface, icons, whatever) to demonstrate this idea in action and how it could be a great feature for Civ4.

However, I am going to need some help. I will just post what was said in another thread so you understand what we are talking about first.

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Imagine it, when you get a new tech, or you are going to war, and you need to design a new unit for your new war, then you simply go into the barracks window or whatever,

1st select human/vehicle/aircraft/ship

2nd you select its armor, you could select anything from bronze to steel or titanium, all depending on your tech, and you could select its thickness. The thicker it is, the heaver it is.

3rd you select its offensive weapons, obviously what you get depends on the techs you have, some are light, some are heavy, some are weak, some are strong, each with their own advantages and disadvantages with themselves and against opponent units.

finally, if its a vehicle or aircraft, you select its engine type, or if its a sail ship, you select how many sails it has (I dunno! SOMETHING!).

And then once all this is done, the game calculates everything together, and tells you what terrains it can and or can't go over (coz maybe its too heavy, etc) how fast it can go, how far it can go, its offense and defense strength and of course, its costs.
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So what I need frome people are the types of material that can be used (bronze, steel, etc) types of weapons (defensive and offensive), what type of "vehicle" can these weapons fit on? what sort of weight does each weapon have, that sort of thing.

How should this Workshop run? Is it all on one screen? or is it a step by step screen, should it be a very very simple task to do? Anything you can think of.

I am hoping to create our own little Unit Workshop, I'll be posting screenshots of it, and probably even having a small working model (just for display and test reasons).

I'm not trying to create something FOR firaxis. I am just doing this to see how good this feature could be and to truly help Firaxis out with this idea. Rather than just say "Oh, I hope they add the Unit Workshop".

[Kuciwalker]

How would defense and attack be determined? How would this really benefit gameplay? Why is the current unit system inadequate?

[Urban Ranger]

Youngsun and I had worked out a unit workshop for Civ 3. It should be in the archives somewhere.

[Abdul Alhazred]

No, an unit workshop as in Alpha Centauri

I want it !

[mrboo123]

I would like it, but only a( if I don't have to use it, there are already premade unitls, and b( if I don't have to reseach it serpterly( or I'd NEVER bulid untils!)

[Inverse Icarus]

i'll give a simple example.

you'll start off the game with a simple solder chasis, capable of carrying a primary weapon, a shield, and perhaps an item.

so you have a structure something like this:

[Unit Name]
- Primary Weapon
- Shield
- Item

then, each tech would allow you to build ITEMS. for example, bronze working would allow bronze spears and broze shields, and iron working would allow iron swords. each ITEM you can build would have A.D.M values (or another system of stats) associated with it.

the base unit (warrior) would be 1/1/1. give him a bronze shield (+1 defense) and he gets 1/2/1. an iron sword (+2 attack) makes him 3/2/1. etc, etc. each part of the unit would also have a COST, which is VERY IMPORTANT. if you need a lot of defenders NOW, you won't give them the iron swords (as they're worthless on defense) and the unit would cost, say, 10 shields cheaper.

so techs would give you different items to add to units, and would eventually add different "chasis", or "unit types", like horseback units with a base of 1/1/2. give them iron swords they'll be 3/1/2, etc etc.

you could make items chasis-specific if you wanted to, as iron swords might not be as effective on horseback as, say long spears.

[Inverse Icarus]

and of course, there would be a standard line of units based on your technology, just like civ 3. you won't have to customize anything if you don't want to, but you'll be missing out if you don't

[Fosse]

I am against having a unit workshop in Civ, though I loved it greatly in SMAC.

Part of the joy in Civ is the "recreating history" feel, and somehow tinkering with units in a workshop just doesn't feel like it has the same majesty.

A drawback of this sort of system in Civ is that you will essentially be "designing" the same units that would be viable if they came prepackaged. In SMAC this was countered by leaving good units out of the list to let the player discover them. Then, when the player discovered them the game was set out of balance because the AI coldn't design or build its own units.

If we give the AI the ability to design intelligent units, then the "auto-design" feature would design every good unit, and we would be left with "stock" units that look clunkier than they would if units were not "designed."

And let's face it... after a while you build the same units all the time anyhow.

Also, unit design workshops leave out the ability to smoothly implement unique units, which was well liked in Civ 3 and would not likely be on Firaxis' list of things to do away with.

And Uber KruX... the unit wihtout a sword being cheaper to build... well, that's in the game without unit design. Careful design and balancing are what is needed, not a workshop, in my opinion.


As a side note of sorts...
As a big supporter of army combat, that is to say a system more similar to CtP than Civ, I see lots of potential for army design, with "stock" units. A good Firaxis designed set of units - with combat situation bonses (pikes vs. horse, for example) and a vast array of historical units - could make army design a much more interesting minigame than simply deciding how many attack points you want on your attacker, and what "chasis" you want it to ride in on.


Just my two cents worth, anyhow.

Regards,
Fosse

[alva]

Nicely put Fosse
-

Btw: Wouldn't these unit-work-shops hell for the animation designers?

[Shogun Gunner]

I will say that I'm intriqued by the unit workshop.

Also, Sn00py is a standup guy to try and DO something to contribute. I just wanted to tip my hat to you. I think your graphics are incredible, I use several of your graphics mods.

I haven't played AC. Is this the only game that had a unit workshop? I think I need to check the game out to get a better idea.

[Fosse]

Oops.. there was one point I meant to make but forgot to...

Sn00py, I clearly am not a fan of your idea, but I am a huge fan of your approach to showing it to us and Firaxis. I agree that the ideas most likely to be considered by Firaxis are those that have been most thouroughly considered by us. As much as I dislike your idea, your post is excellent.

[MxM]

I do not like the idea of workshop neither. I do not see how it can add to the depth of the game, but I do see how it adds into micromanagement, and how it makes impossible to understand units statistics just by looking on them.

So what’s the point of workshop? Why people want it? What can not be achieved without workshop in CIV game, just by supplying enough unique units?

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Fosse
I am against having a unit workshop in Civ, though I loved it greatly in SMAC.

Part of the joy in Civ is the "recreating history" feel, and somehow tinkering with units in a workshop just doesn't feel like it has the same majesty.

A drawback of this sort of system in Civ is that you will essentially be "designing" the same units that would be viable if they came prepackaged. In SMAC this was countered by leaving good units out of the list to let the player discover them. Then, when the player discovered them the game was set out of balance because the AI coldn't design or build its own units.

If we give the AI the ability to design intelligent units, then the "auto-design" feature would design every good unit, and we would be left with "stock" units that look clunkier than they would if units were not "designed."

And let's face it... after a while you build the same units all the time anyhow.

Also, unit design workshops leave out the ability to smoothly implement unique units, which was well liked in Civ 3 and would not likely be on Firaxis' list of things to do away with.

And Uber KruX... the unit wihtout a sword being cheaper to build... well, that's in the game without unit design. Careful design and balancing are what is needed, not a workshop, in my opinion.


As a side note of sorts...
As a big supporter of army combat, that is to say a system more similar to CtP than Civ, I see lots of potential for army design, with "stock" units. A good Firaxis designed set of units - with combat situation bonses (pikes vs. horse, for example) and a vast array of historical units - could make army design a much more interesting minigame than simply deciding how many attack points you want on your attacker, and what "chasis" you want it to ride in on.


Just my two cents worth, anyhow.

Regards,
Fosse

I appreciate your in depth answers Fosse.

I don't wish to counter-act people with their arguements, but I do want to make sure that we have thought this through thoroughly before flushing it down the toilet.

1st of all, one of the problems for Firaxis is the unit creating, it seems to take them a long time, and probably even takes up a lot of computer resources the more units you add, I'm not sure on Firaxis' reasons for not supplying most units in history, but one of the great powers of the UW is that Firaxis only has to develop the base unit (i.e. Human, Hull for the ship, body for the plane, etc) Then Firaxis' has to simply create each weapon that will fit in the hands/back/body/hull of the base unit. Just like the way Diablo works. Of course, to get this to work properly, they would have to make the units 3D - so similar to Rise of Nations units, but I hope that if Firaxis were to go down that line, that the graphics would be 10x better!


To your 2nd reason, I do understand that flaw. But the scenario's I am seeing are that people will face an opponent unit they are having trouble with. So you go to the UW to try and develop a unit that would counter-act that unit, that unit could end up being very costly, or it could require a resource that you don't have a lot of, or maybe you are able to produce a lot of them with ease, and so your opponent has to build something to counter-act your units. This whole feature results in Civ's creating their own unique units; its also historically accurate that not every civ will have the same unit.
By the way, it would be very cool if you could name this type of unit that you create, but if you create a unit that has already existed, (like a Phalanx for example), then the unit you created automatically gets named "Phalanx".

You wouldn't build the same units every time, because there would be so many variations and problems (resources?) that would encounter you. Also, you may try a different way to build a unit to counter-act a unit that you have seen in a previous game. What I do see in the future is people discussing how to build a unit to best attack another unit or defend, whatever. Lots of variations!!



I understand the micromanagement flaw also, but like I said, I don't think that's going to be such a huge problem. Let's not remind ourselves of SMAC - I found that to be tedious to use; I do think that the UW can be done better to cut down on micromanagement. I think it would be a simple 1, 2, 3 step process, and its done.

[Fosse]

MAN! Is it nice to be arguing with you!

Seriously, thanks for a thoughtful argument that states your opinions AND resopnds to mine!

I agree 100% that a unit workshop can be done MUCH better than it was in SMAC. The interface can be done much better, and the whole process can be more intuitive.

I'm going to assume, though, that with the exception of the interface and types of hardware you get, your plan is to follow the SMAC way until you tell me otherwise (if I'm going to assume something, I'll at least assume something that many of us have experience with )

That being so... what sorts of "enhancements" do you envision in Civ 4? I doubt you want "Empath Cavalry" or "Fungicidal Workers..." So... what do you want?

Regarding the graphics workload: I have much less of an idea of what the workloads would be for the two systems than I'd imagine you do. One problem with the SMAC UW was that units that were radically different (say, empath rover with synth metal vs. Fusion laser rover with jump pods and no armor), managed to look almost exactly the same.

It seems to me that designing componant pieces that were able to better (or equally) differentiate between unit types would be at least as intensive as creating more individual units.

Also... how do you envision unique units, or is this something you are willing to do without for the UW system?


Fosse

[Kuciwalker]

A SMAC-style UW is completely out of the question. It would destroy any pretense of realism to have units defend with their armor and attack with their weapon