FrankenCiv: a hypothetical

[Elok]

So, I've been thinking . . .

Y'know what was great about CivII? It was probably the most mod-friendly TBS game ever. It was right at the sweet spot where just about any schmuck could futz around with the .txt files and rework the game to make it into almost anything. The same basic game could be transformed into a Star Trek, WWII, Tolkien, medieval or fantasy game. Or any number of other oddities. But there were limitations; you had to work around the game's limitations, and some effects had to be approximated by hacking or exploiting arcane bugs like Domain Three.

More recent games have been more moddable in theory, but in practice, enhanced modern graphics shut that door. Lots of people can whip up perfectly serviceable static bmps on the CivII level, but they can't make animated Nazgul image files or anything. The idea of mucking around with Python might be intimidating as well, compared to just fiddling with some basic files.

So, my idea: what if there were a sort of skeletal civ "platform" designed for maximum customization, built roughly along CivII lines but with elements of SMAC and IV? I'm thinking something with HUGE reference files with a squillion variables to tweak for everything. So you could have, say, up to a seven-by-seven SMAC-style SE "grid," with user-defined values. Why seven? Because it's bigger than I can imagine any sane person actually wanting to use. Buildings? You can create a building that boosts starting ground experience by two, adds two food, and can only be built by civs in groups X and Y with access to techs A and B, running civic Q, and so on.

The biggest issue I can think of is AI; AI tends to be stupid even without massive amounts of variables it can't weigh. I'm thinking you could compensate by adding AI fields in groups for each tech/unit/building/civic/whatever. So AI personality type 0 ("the rusher") could have a high value set for attack units, maybe a few basic growth-boosting buildings, and supporting civics, while refusing to consider wonders. The idea is: "the AI is going to be a moron; let's make him a moron who takes orders."

Okay, that's it for now. What would you add to this fantasy?

[Dinner]

CTP2 was more mod friendly than Civ2 as literally EVERY part of the game was open to modding. That said, CTP2 wasn't even a tenth as popular as Civ2 so Civ2 got a hell of a lot more mods made for it. My personal take as to why Civ2 was so successful? Sure, it was a great game, a logical evolution of Civ1, but, for me, it was the multiplayer add on which really made the game shine. MP over the internet just wasn't that common back in those days so to have a really well done and well thought out strategy game which also offered the opportunity to play with people from around the world? That was simply a "killer app" at the time even if it is more run of the mill these days.

[Felch]

I'm with Elok on this. I loved being able to easily copy and paste units from different .gifs, and tweaking things in rules.txt was a piece of cake. I'd love to see an updated skeleton game that would bring all that back with a few of the improvements from later iterations.

[onodera]

FreeCiv?

[Aeson]

I like the idea. It would work well as a browser game. HTML5 would make it easy to build, and by nature is easy to modify. I'm sure one of the many HTML game engines would be able to handled it easily and get the project off to a running start ...

[Ben Kenobi]

Civ2 was absolutely amazing. It had everything. Multiplayer, ease of modability, great gameplay. I still play it because I can get a game fired up and finished in a night.

[Elok]

FreeCiv?

Does FreeCiv support modding? I thought it was basically a near-perfect-fidelity remake of Civ2. I checked their Wiki the other day and saw no mention of any mod community.

I like the idea. It would work well as a browser game. HTML5 would make it easy to build, and by nature is easy to modify. I'm sure one of the many HTML game engines would be able to handled it easily and get the project off to a running start ...

Really? I was thinking it would drive a man insane just trying to nail down all the variables and getting them in order. Not that I'd be the man for it anyway--this is mostly a pie-in-the-sky thing. I've got lots of ideas, but I barely know programming and I'm short on free time.

[Sava]

So, I've been thinking . . .

Y'know what was great about CivII? It was probably the most mod-friendly TBS game ever. It was right at the sweet spot where just about any schmuck could futz around with the .txt files and rework the game to make it into almost anything. The same basic game could be transformed into a Star Trek, WWII, Tolkien, medieval or fantasy game. Or any number of other oddities. But there were limitations; you had to work around the game's limitations, and some effects had to be approximated by hacking or exploiting arcane bugs like Domain Three.

More recent games have been more moddable in theory, but in practice, enhanced modern graphics shut that door. Lots of people can whip up perfectly serviceable static bmps on the CivII level, but they can't make animated Nazgul image files or anything. The idea of mucking around with Python might be intimidating as well, compared to just fiddling with some basic files.

So, my idea: what if there were a sort of skeletal civ "platform" designed for maximum customization, built roughly along CivII lines but with elements of SMAC and IV? I'm thinking something with HUGE reference files with a squillion variables to tweak for everything. So you could have, say, up to a seven-by-seven SMAC-style SE "grid," with user-defined values. Why seven? Because it's bigger than I can imagine any sane person actually wanting to use. Buildings? You can create a building that boosts starting ground experience by two, adds two food, and can only be built by civs in groups X and Y with access to techs A and B, running civic Q, and so on.

The biggest issue I can think of is AI; AI tends to be stupid even without massive amounts of variables it can't weigh. I'm thinking you could compensate by adding AI fields in groups for each tech/unit/building/civic/whatever. So AI personality type 0 ("the rusher") could have a high value set for attack units, maybe a few basic growth-boosting buildings, and supporting civics, while refusing to consider wonders. The idea is: "the AI is going to be a moron; let's make him a moron who takes orders."

Okay, that's it for now. What would you add to this fantasy?

Sounds good.

Sadly, it also sounds like there is zero money in it... so it won't happen.

The good news is, making this game would be relatively easy. Assuming 2D graphics will be used... it could all be done with Game Maker.

[Aeson]

Really? I was thinking it would drive a man insane just trying to nail down all the variables and getting them in order. Not that I'd be the man for it anyway--this is mostly a pie-in-the-sky thing. I've got lots of ideas, but I barely know programming and I'm short on free time.

I had actually been planning on making some HTML5 games later this year or the next. I've always wanted to do a 4X game.

If/when I can get around to it may depend on how good CivBE is

[Elok]

You might tie it in to Poly, see if you can lure back some of the old-schoolers we lost when the Civ2 Sleague migrated to CFC. To that end, let's get some community involvement; everybody pile on Aeson with suggestions and ideas!

My thought was to use the SE table model from SMAC, the Health, Happiness, Maintenance, and unit upkeep schemes from CivIV, and graphics basically identical to II's, so the vast wealth of CivII graphic resources on the net could be looted to jumpstart a community. Also, the CivIV "you can't enter my territory without declaring war or open borders" feature.

More eccentrically, it would be cool to liberate the concepts of fuel limits and transport from air and sea units, respectively. There's no reason why either needs to be hard-tied to its real-world counterpart.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I support, would be a fun game, sure bound to beat whatever CivBE ends up being.

[Sava]

I would enjoy and contribute to a community project.

(but if money is involved, it could get ugly)

[Elok]

My brain's been in a ferment this morning. I suggest that money get involved only incidentally; the project should be (partially) a means to draw people to the site, and thus get Aeson click revenue, but charging for it would probably cause legal difficulties somehow, especially given the community-driven nature of the thing.

Further suggestions: While terrain should be divisible into "land" and "sea" types for graphics purposes (coastlines are a biznatch), there's no reason to shackle players to three unit types. Give them a wide range of unit classes to configure, so that a SMAC fan can make a hovertank that moves readily over coast, ocean and flatlands, but slows down on forests and mountains just like the real thing would (and can run out of fuel, if designer so chooses). Or alpine troops that are genuinely alpine--their class only gets move bonuses on hilly terrain, and special defense bonuses as well. Tie in transport, while you're at it, so units can transport classes A, B, and C, but not D or E. This is a canoe, mister; your horses will have to wait for the next raft!

And so on. The idea would be to have a vast array of features the designer can remove or ignore at will in selective fashion. They might not want SMAC-style crawlers, or caravans, or (ideally) workers that can perform some but not all functions of spies for some damn reason. But it's there if they want it. Terraforming crawler helicopters for all!

Finally, if I can get some skillz by the time this beast shudders into motion, can I help with some relatively idiot-proof aspect, like setting up the vanilla-civ "demo," and put it as experience on my resume?

[Sava]

Coming up with a set of agreed upon features for the game could present a problem. Everyone has their own little list of ways to make Civ awesome.

I like the idea of it being more modular... so features can be disabled/enabled at will.

[Sava]

Finally, if I can get some skillz by the time this beast shudders into motion, can I help with some relatively idiot-proof aspect, like setting up the vanilla-civ "demo," and put it as experience on my resume?