Alexander

[dino_2d]

Can someone answer me why is Alexander shown as a Greek leader when even a crows on the tree know that he is MACEDONIAN.
Stop stealing Macedonian history.

P.S.
Great game except the above mentionet bug that i hope will be fixed in some next patch.

Thanx

[Martinus]

lol I love people like you

No, really.

Alexander was Macedonian. Cleopatra was Macedonian. Catherine was German. Victoria was German. Washington was British. Napoleon was Corsican.

[Son of David]

Ma·ce·don

An ancient kingdom of northern Greece originally occupying territory north of Thessaly and northwest of the Aegean Sea. It was the center of a powerful empire under Philip II and his son Alexander the Great and contributed significantly to the spread of Hellenistic civilization. It became the first Roman province in 146 B.C.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=macedonia


So he was technically Greek then?

[Jonah5]

At least it was called Alexander's empire and not the Greek empire;
Washington, Napoleon, and Cleopatra were official rulers of their nations, whether they were from the places they ruled or not. I think Cleopatra was born in Egypt and Corsica was part of Frace at the time Napoleon was born. Washington is self-explanatory.
*No rudeness intended*

[Jonah5]

Ugh I don't know anything about Victoria or Catherine.

[Boris Godunov]

Cleopatra was as much Egyptian as she was Macedonian, so that's not fair.

And Washington wasn't British, he was born in Virginia. While that was an English Colony at the time, he wouldn't have really been considered "British." And when he was U.S. President, he was unquestionably "American."

[Boris Godunov]

Oh, and Victoria wasn't German. She was born in the UK to the fourth son of King George III (who while of German descent, was also born in the UK). Victoria's mother was German, but she herself was fully British by any meaningful definition.

[Diadem]

Well Macedon was a Greek nation. So Alexander was a greek leader. Not *the* great leader obviously, he only lead one of the Greek nations.

But there never was a single leader for all the Greek nations. So it makes sense to just pick one of the best known Greek leaders. Which happened to be Alexander.

[Martinus]

Well, once he conquered of all Greece, he was the leader of all the Greek nations, technically.

[Last Conformist]

He even used "hegemon of the Greeks" or something like that in his titulature.

[Handel]

Everyone knows the ancient Macedonia have nothing in common with todays Macedonia. The ancient Macedonia was a greek state - as much as Athens, Sparta and many others.
The todays Macedonia is a fake nation created by Stalin after the end or WWII on the rule "divide and conquer". It consists from parts of Greek, Serbia, Albania and Bulgaria.

[Shogun Gunner]

I love how this topic comes up from time to time regarding FYROM. What a beautiful name for a country - FYROM

People look for absolutes in life. There are not any 100% absolutes -- even in the most technical aspects of science were widely held scientific beliefs are shaken from time to time. Speed of light is constant? Not according to some new theories in physics regarding black holes.

So, you have an immigrant to a country. He lives there a long time. At what exact moment does he cease to be the nationality of his former country and fully the nationality of his new country. When does that split second of change occur. Obviously, there's no concise, absolute, definitive answer to that question.

When is a ruler a ruler of his nation? When he's elected? What about dictatorships? When he controls the country? What if that is challenged to some degree? Again, not an obvious answer, but common sense makes that a bit easier, no?

Not happy that Alexander is the ruler of Greece, when he's Macedonian? Great. Let's debate this whole subject to death just one more time, because this time I'm sure we can work it out and get a 100% acceptance on our conclusion.

The over/under before MarkG weighs in with his opinion is set to 4 posts.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
The over/under before MarkG weighs in with his opinion is set to 4 posts.

Catherine is a good point - she wasn't Russian.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
He even used "hegemon of the Greeks" or something like that in his titulature.

he was elected (yeah, well, ok, there really was a vote!) "hegemon" (leader) and "strategos"(commander in chief) of all greeks for the purpose of geting revenge from the persians
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/He...a/en/A1.4.html

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Jonah5
At least it was called Alexander's empire and not the Greek empire;
Washington, Napoleon, and Cleopatra were official rulers of their nations

Alexander was the official ruler of Greeks as well (see post above)

and i dont think there was ever an official name of "alexander's empire" (nor one of a "greek empire" either)....

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Martinus
Alexander was Macedonian. Cleopatra was Macedonian. Catherine was German. Victoria was German. Washington was British. Napoleon was Corsican.

You forgot Saladin - he was a Kurd not an Arab.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner

The over/under before MarkG weighs in with his opinion is set to 4 posts.

I should have taken the under

[Dubhghlas]

Originally posted by LordShiva




Catherine is a good point - she wasn't Russian.

Catherine is a stupid point; she lead the Russians, regardless of what her own ancestry was.

The Original Poster is attempting to assert that the Macedonians weren't "Greek." This is an issue that currently causes much dissention; as Wikipedia says:

From the Wikipedia

The Greek (Hellenic) character of the ancient Macedonians is disputed among scholars, a dispute which sometimes takes on polemic and nationalist overtones, and essentially hinges on the exact definition of "Hellene".

You will find a nice summary of both the historical documentary evidence and the linguistic evidence on the subject at that site.

However, the true argument to use against the Original Poster is that, while scholars may debate whether or not the Macedonians were Hellenic prior to the rule of Phillip II, all agree that Phillip and his son, Alexander III (commonly known as "the Great"), thoroughly hellenized the Macedonians, and they were known during and after Alexander as being a Greek people. I am certain that the Persians didn't engage in linguistic debates over the exact origin of the Macedonians while being dismembered at Granicus and Issus.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Stuie


You forgot Saladin - he was a Kurd not an Arab.

And Stalin was Georgian and Hitler Austrian.

Churchill had an American mother, and Philip II of Spain had a Portuguese mother and a father born in Ghent, whose first language was French.

Although at least Charles V had one Spanish parent...

[Dubhghlas]

Technically, not really, since the country known as "Spain" didn't really exist at the time his mother was born.

[Martinus]

And Isabella was a Castillan.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Dubhghlas
Technically, not really, since the country known as "Spain" didn't really exist at the time his mother was born.

Indeed.

Charles V and I is considered (by many Spaniards) to be the first King of Spain, although it was actually his son who was first to use the title.

I suppose I could have said Charles's mother was Castilian, if I were being pedantic.

[Martinus]

Still, for some reason there is something about Alexander that raises more idiocy from Greeks/Macedonians than corresponding issues about other leaders from their own nations (viz. the upheaval over the depiction of Alexander as bisexual in Oliver Stone's movie, which is a widely known historical fact). I suppose some nationalists have a limited number of venues of demonstrating their national pride and need to move from sublime to ridiculous...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Martinus

I suppose some nationalists have a limited number of venues of demonstrating their national pride and need to move from sublime to ridiculous...

Many modern day Greeks are in denial about the same-sex aspects of ancient Greek history and culture.

Some even found it hard to believe that mythical figures had same-sex relations, if memory serves... despite Zeus and Ganymede, Herakles and Hylas, Apollo and Hyacinth.. and of course all those pesky black figure vases showing men doing unspeakableness with men...

[Ray K]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Many modern day Greeks are in denial about the same-sex aspects of ancient Greek history and culture.

Some even found it hard to believe that mythical figures had same-sex relations, if memory serves... despite Zeus and Ganymede, Herakles and Hylas, Apollo and Hyacinth.. and of course all those pesky black figure vases showing men doing unspeakableness with men...

And who gives a crap about the people who care about this???

The only people who care about this are generally uptight religious types, so that tells you all you need to know about their biases.

Homosexuality was around long before the ancient Greeks and will be around long after we are all gone. The difference with the Greeks is that they were more tolerant of it, so accounts of it survive in their written records. For that, I commend them.

[dino_2d]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/

Educate your self people.
Greeks didnt even alowed the use of name Macedonia before 1988 when they forsee the fall of Yugoslavia.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Martinus
Still, for some reason there is something about Alexander that raises more idiocy from Greeks/Macedonians than corresponding issues about other leaders from their own nations

two reasons: 1) the "Macedonian" identity of a large part of the population of FYROM (not the entirety as about 30% are Albanians) is a constructed one, create in the last few decades
2) this identity is used by fyromian nationalists to create territorial claims towards greece (until a few years ago fyrom's constitution was calling for the liberation of the enslaved fyromians in neighbouring countries)

from the site posted just above


as you can see, i'm a macedonian waiting to be liberated....


anyway, as their fyromian claims to greek history are fresh compared to the subject of the nationality of napoleon you are bound to see it more often

[MarkG]

moving the thread where it belongs for the pleasure of the usual audience on this issue

[dino_2d]

Macedonia was never Greek before 1912 and the majority of population in Solun (Tessaloniki ) is even today of Macedonian origin and what is more interesting thay speak same language as i do, bud the democratic level in Greece is not to evolved i mean it is on the same level as in the Hitlers Germany.
And explain me why on the maps before 1912 the names of the places are understandable to me and not you and thay are changed todey to fit Greek needs.
If you dont belive me why dont you check with the macedonian organisation Rainbow or you can learn Macedonian and try my language in Solun you wil be understood quite good.
Buy the way are you what turks call muhadzir i think that you understand this word quite good.

[Az]

Dino_2d you're completely right. What especially angers me is the Greeks' unquestionably idiotic feeling that they can tell other people how they should name themselves.

If we would place a parallel to the situation here:

the Palestinians should be called FJTOPians or something like that.

So what if many of the palestinians think that they should own territories inside Israel?

So what if the link to the ancient palestinians, the philistines, is dubious ( much more than the link between modern FYROM and ancient macedonia )?

So what if there are territories inside Israel that are called Philistine?


THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN DICTATE TO THE PALESTINIANS HOW THEY SHOULD CALL THEMSELVES!!!!