Tory leadership battle (plus highly biased guide to it!)

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Sorry- your opinions are irrelevant because you live on a different street to me.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe


I bet a £100 that the other has never been to Brixton, or any other area's with a problem, your reply was interesting.

You really shouldn't patronize people simply because they don't happen to live in your part of the country.

But if you are minded to do so, read up about violent or alcohol related crime in rural areas first- it might disabuse you of the notion that somehow Sarf Lunnen is the equivalent of the Bronx and that this somehow justifies the reintroduction of Sus Laws.


We all know where those led last time don't we ? Toxteth:

The Merseyside force of the time had a particularly bad reputation in the area for stopping and searching black youths under the infamous 'sus' laws.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1419981.stm


and for good measure, Sarf Lunnen:

Plainclothes police officers stopped and searched large numbers of black youths on Brixton's streets.

This caused widespread resentment against the police and the use of the infamous "sus" laws.

Hundreds of black and white youths went on the rampage, attacking police, setting cars alight and looting shops in a tense disturbance which quickly spiralled out of control.

Over 300 people were injured, including more than 200 police officers, and 83 premises and 23 vehicles were damaged, at an estimated cost of £7.5m.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1355718.stm


But of course it's not just 'street yoof' who get stopped:

Black bishop 'demeaned' by police search

The only black member of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, which found that the Metropolitan Police was institutionally racist, yesterday said he felt demeaned after an officer stopped and searched his car.
John Sentamu, the Anglican Bishop of Stepney, was made to get out of his vehicle in the rain after being stopped near St Paul's cathedral.

He said it was the eighth time in eight years that he had been questioned by police exercising their stop and search powers, which research has shown is directed disproportionately at black people.

The incident is another setback for the police, who are trying to prove they have learned the lessons of the Lawrence inquiry.
The bishop, 50, said that when he asked why he had been stopped the officer ordered him to open the boot so it could be searched.

The bishop, an internationally respected figure who was jailed by the Ugandan despot, Idi Amin, was driving back to his east London home just after midnight on Tuesday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Sto...193353,00.html


Bet he felt real nostalgic for Uganda with that arbitrary stop and search.

[Toby Rowe]

I see you are trying to demean me.

Yesterday I had quite a good chat with a female black teacher about her problems dealing with pubescent 15 year olds, most of whom are black, but it is as irrelevant as your post.

She teaches English in Peckham, you don't. I live in inner South London, you don't. Practise what you know about.

Toby

[Drogue]

Yes, you live in South London. That means there's 99% of the country you don't live in, and thus don't fully understand the problems of. I accept stop and search, or other ideas, may be good for Brixton, but may not be for other parts of the country. That's what democracy's for, deciding what nationwide policy is for when something's a good idea for some parts and not for others. This argument isn't about inner London, it's about the whole country, and thus where you live doesn't make your opinion any more valid.

[Toby Rowe]

As the majority of the nation live in cities, I think I can safely speak for most, Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool la de la.

Until authority is returned back to teachers the problems will continue, not diminish, we now have an entire generation of Parents who haven't learn't what respect actually is, and thus attittude to others, now we are getting their nippers on the streets and boy is it showing.

Have you ever had a chat with a Brixton cop, and then a rural cop- the differences are amazing, as is their respective style of policing- they police according to circumstance, and at the end of the day are humans just like you.

Stressed out? This arguement is making me. They have it every day upon waking before they even start work.

Toby

[Dauphin]

I spend most of my waking hours in London, just like many other millions of London folk. I feel I have no qualification whatsoever to speak about the day to day lives of those who live in Manchester, Birmingham or Sheffield. Why should you feel you are a better judge?

[Toby Rowe]

The majority of all crimes are committed in the inner city areas, meaning anyone living in one, whilst talking about Crime- guns and drugs especially can speak for all who live in the inner city. I've also visited many major cities within our nation and had good nights out in all.

Look mate, until the Government allows the people to defend themselves with either a gun or knife we are defenceless if the other person has one: knowing where someone lives via an ID card will help and I hope the Police will target more efficiently than they are currently able to do.

Toby

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
I see you are trying to demean me.

I live in inner South London, you don't. Practise what you know about.

Toby

No, you're doing a great job all on your own.

I live in inner South London, you don't. Practise what you know about.

Oh my- I live in rural all white East London- what would I know about 'sus' laws and race relations ?


After all, I only grew up in inner city Coventry in the '60s and '70s and lived in inner city Manchester in the '80s.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by molly bloom
After all, I only grew up in inner city Coventry in the '60s and '70s ...

Whereabouts in Cov, Molly? I lived there in the mid-eighties.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Whereabouts in Cov, Molly? I lived there in the mid-eighties.

I was born in the hospital opposite Swanswell Park- then lived for the first three years in Hillfields.

Then I moved to near Gosford Green and then back to Hillfields.


I can remember all these fascinating bomb sites and semi-derelict houses from when I was young- it was intriguing seeing all these houses ripped in half with bedrooms and bathrooms gaping to the sky.

In the 1970s it certainly became more 'interesting' in the Chinese curse sense, with the rise of the National Front and B.N.P. - I can recall the marches and the murders of British Asians vividly. And of course undiluted Thatcherism, mass long term unemployment and the S.P.G. just made life all the more groovy.


Still, it did give us the Specials and 'Ghost Town'....

[Toby Rowe]

And to think it simply began as an innocent disagreement about ID cards, or rather Tory leadership, even.

I still don't know why you are opposed to ID cards, I clearly stated why I'd like them, what is/are your reasons for opposing them, other than cost? (and I too will not pay for an initial one on principle).

Molly-
The Specials were great, and the Ska scene ended my days as a punk, "Ghost town" should be the tribute song to the Thatcher era.......

Toby

[Sandman]

France's ID cards have certainly helped them with their inner city crime.

[Toby Rowe]

Sandman,

I was quite interested in the fact that after nine days of riots the police had still only nicked 200 people, how come so low?

I'd like to know more about the discontent within the immigrant community, why is France so different to the UK right now? -Given that mass immigration into both nations began at roughly the same time, but that our two societies are rather different it now appears.

As for ID cards, once the CRS have nicked a person, they instantly know who they are, and where they live- the very point of an ID card I hope, unless forgery is easy as suggested above in an earlier post, in which case they will be pointless. With an Iris scan, they won't.

I want an ID card, 90% of my friends don't, I'll remain wanting one unless otherwise convinced, thus far they have failed.

Toby

[Drake Tungsten]

So what's the dirt on this Cameron fellow?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well surely better choice than David Davies, and dependable what kind of charachter he is, Labour will again win a landslide, or he will cut the lead a little more... this is what it seems at the moment...

The Old Etonian, an MP for only four years, said the Tories must change and be in tune with today's Britain with a "modern compassionate Conservatism".

and this surely doesn't sound good... what a moron would dare to utter this phrase after 6 years of "compassionate conservativism" in US perhaps that is not the "modern" form...

[MikeH]

In the UK it has a totally different resonance to the US I think. I certainly didn't relate the two.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to add... other than that Tories could not have elected a better leader, and this one will give Gordon a run for his money ... dependable how Labour does in next 3 years he might even win it.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by MikeH
In the UK it has a totally different resonance to the US I think. I certainly didn't relate the two.

well I guess good for him, but me reading the net more than regular newspapers "compassionate conservativism" = "Mr Bush wannabe theocracy in US" At least this is how he refers to his policies...

to use exactly the same phrase well, I guess he is either reckles, or ignores the existance of American version "compassionate conservativism"...

[MikeH]

Basically it does mean the same thing ie.

Make sure life is nice for the good middle class and rich white folks by screwing over the poor but pretend that we're 'improving the economy' so the poor people we're screwing can become rich.

[Saras]

Originally posted by MikeH
<...>we're 'improving the economy' so the poor people <...> can become rich.

Fishing net
fish

[MikeH]

No idea what you mean.

Thinking about it the compassionate bit is just a sweetner/spin to make the unpleasantness of conservatism seem less unpleasant isn't it. So I guess it is the same as the US version.

[Saras]

Britain (well, every country for that matter) needs more upward class mobility. Giving ppl fishing nets instead of fish, so to speak, is good in my book. Problem is, how is the current labour different, i.e., what actual steps the tories take that labour did not?

[MikeH]

Ah right. Yes. I totally agree in that principle.

The Tories haven't actually really announced any policies so it's hard to see what they'd recommend. Normally they seem to suggest that lower taxation and cutting services is going to be the answer but that seems to me to have the opposite effect.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

the only long term solution is of course education, this is the enabler for people to do more out of the resources available to them. This should be the cornerstone, and as it looks like Blair has that on the agenda, but now how he is going to go about it, is a different question.

Regardless the way Labour handled fiscal and social issues over past 7 years has been very good, the only insane rethoric IMO are still the house prices that are going to sink the whole economy once they tumble (if they do that is)... but overall for waht is worth this governmet did better than any other in the world over its period of "rule"... now going forward and creating upward mobility... well it is here in a sense, it is more about the ability of the society to address the social groups which find it "inadequate" to get on the ladder and get on with it so to speak (education, etc) and to make the whole system more robust and to serve the people of the country better. + a genunie net for those individual cases that need specific help. Again the help should be, you get the fish, as long as you accept to learn how to fish. No "free" fish without learning how to fish so to speak, and after the learning stops the last bit of care should be making sure that the person gets a job.

At the end of it all it would be better to have thousands of unemployeed people with education than unemployed hopeless cases like now ... (at least than you could push them into work or into studying some more much easier)

That will in time change the mentality of those who are at the bottom... but well we will see what the new Tories bring on the table.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to go back to Labour vs Tory question... the Labour big minus is of course the opportunism and recklesness of its government connected to Iraq... however if the Tories were in their position they would do even worse (except for Kenneth Clark I guess) and they officially supported this suckup to US.

Other than that I don't think anyone can fault Labour too much, but perhaps now after so long in government they are beginning to show weaknesses and openings to the alternatives.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
So what's the dirt on this Cameron fellow?

He's related to the Queen, being descended from one of William IV's better-known bastards. He's a public schoolboy, so has almost certainly participated in non-consensual homo-erotic activities. He's probably taken cocaine. His wife used to knock around with the rapper Tricky and has tattoos. He looks slightly retarded. He's an urban cyclist. He wants to re-introduce National Service.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Saras
Britain (well, every country for that matter) needs more upward class mobility. Giving ppl fishing nets instead of fish, so to speak, is good in my book. Problem is, how is the current labour different, i.e., what actual steps the tories take that labour did not?

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Dauphin


Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

give the man a fish, shoot him, give him to the fishes and you will have more fish

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


He wants to re-introduce National Service.

Killer failure... I am sure he will rethink that one

[MOBIUS]

Big tough Toby thinks he's down with the hood cos he lives in inner city South London...

Big deal. You're still talking crap.

ID cards are useless, and I particularly liked his unique take, he wants them but refuses to pay for them - are they going to magically appear on trees or something?

So says a 'veteran' of Loughborough Junction and New Cross Gate or 8 years.