Powerful and Weak Civs

[Aginor]

Long story short production & resource advantages are generally stronger than miltary advantages. On paper the Incas appear to be the strongest civ, as they solve the early Wealth problem that all other civs must deal with very neatly. Technological advantages are usually also strong, so you would expect the Greeks to be a solid civ.

(Examples of the tradition: Psilons, Klackons in MOO...Yang, Zakharov in SMAC...while not DOMINANT if you leave out Psilons, given equal play skill these types of civs/factions/races tend to win more frequently)


However, 3 simple words ensure balance in THIS game:

Plunder: 500 ALL

That is what keeps the rush/military civs viable.

The game is at its heart a slightly more complex (and much more addictive) version of rock paper scissors...there are two options, rush and boom, and different degrees of boom (depending on how much defensive infrastructure you want to build). Pure rush dominates pure boom, but failed rush is ALWAYS disaster...the tricky act of balancing on the tip of the boom sword is what makes the game interesting IMO.

I think you can safely advance the argument that a civ that neither booms nor rushes particularly well is in a great deal of trouble. However, the civs singled out in this thread as "weak" are both solid boomers. In addition to production bonuses, the Mayans can get away with spending next to nothing on military early and still clock any invading force, and that is NOT a bonus to be sneered at. With the ability to accumulate Knowledge right away, the Greeks are VERY capable researchers and should be the game's tech leader in a near pure boom.

Based on play experience I suspect that Uber's list of favorite civs will eventually be identified as marginally better boomers than some of the other civs (Incans get mines, Bantu get turf, Egyptians own the key Wonders in PvP).

If any civs deserve to be picked on, it would be the two that are neither strong rushers nor boomers, the Nubians and Russians. However, both are certainly viable...the flexibility the Nubians offer is unmatched, and the Russians have their own strange assets which come into their own once spying becomes critical (and may God help you if they get the Kremlin). The Russians in particular are hard to deal with if you've never faced good Russian players before.

So figure out what works for you and get to it...you'll see me out there with Bantu and Incans mostly, as that's what works well for me.

[Ctulu]

If any civs deserve to be picked on, it would be the two that are neither strong rushers nor boomers, the Nubians and Russians.

I disagree with you on the nubians, they start to gather the most versatile resource in the game frome the start, wealth! It makes you boom/rush like hell! They are a nation that's somewhat overlooked compared to the Inca's, but as Inca you have to wait until clasical to build *gold*mines.
Nubians have an advantage, also with their merchants who gather better. Ruins/better merchants + tradeable wealth from the start = more resources then any1 else = 1 of the most versatile nation. They are powerfull starters, have good start/mid game UU's and in the later games should out buy any other nation!

[Bridger]

Maya is one of my favorite Civs, you can say they are weak until you go up against a Mayan who builds ToT and Taj Mahal, try taking down a major city with 64,000+ Hitpoints!!!!

Their extra defencive bonus is also very nice, it makes non-seige attacks turn into total death traps, even the measly tower can take a whole lot of pounding and deal out twice as much dammage as a normal tower.

And try going up against a fort filled with archers, mayan forts get 60% higher rate of fire! Ya right! Mayan + Cav (to destroy seige) = teh win!

[Ctulu]

it makes non-seige attacks turn into total death traps, even the measly tower can take a whole lot of pounding and deal out twice as much dammage as a normal tower.

I totally agree! They beat any rush except for siege rushes like the Turks! But with such a powerfull defensive system you shouldn't even have to buy infantries from the start, just some Light/heavy cavalry to take out those pesky Siege units/Supply Wagons and Cav Archer's.

Even if you want to build some inf's, only build their UU's(Light Inf)! They counter other Light Inf's, as well as the normal archer counter. They are also cheaper and faster then other Light Inf's. Let your towers/cities/fortresses take care of Heavy Inf's/Cav's, wipe out the rest with your UU's/Cav!

Also try to capitalize on your wood production! Sell Excess!

[Fayadi]

Originally posted by Bridger
Maya is one of my favorite Civs, you can say they are weak until you go up against a Mayan who builds ToT and Taj Mahal, try taking down a major city with 64,000+ Hitpoints!!!!

Their extra defencive bonus is also very nice, it makes non-seige attacks turn into total death traps, even the measly tower can take a whole lot of pounding and deal out twice as much dammage as a normal tower.

And try going up against a fort filled with archers, mayan forts get 60% higher rate of fire! Ya right! Mayan + Cav (to destroy seige) = teh win!

Nobody would attack with just Siege unit!It is not easy to destroy Siege units combined with heavy and gunpowder inf in defensive mode protecting the siege.
I would state strongly that any expert player wont choose Maya as a civ.Maybe when playing Maya you havent met a good player.I have met a good player whom in Medieval age can come out with 2-3 siege combined with 4-5 cavalry + 6-7 light inf(18-21)+1-2 wagon,the exact numbers might be more.This good player can attack with such a mass number when everyone is building the economy in medieval age(to be honest I didnt survive the attack,my ally send reinforcement but was repelled).No matter how strong is your fortress or tower it wont be of no use.Those siege units will take out your buildings without being hurt.Whether you survive this attack depends on how many military units you have not how many defensive buildings you have.Relying on building for military defense is a bad idea I think.I will say that Maya might be the least favourite civ among experts because other civ advantages are more attractive.The Cynex Strategy guide book also mentioned that Maya unique bonuses are attractive for the beginners and also mentioned that experienced players wont like Maya's unique bonuses.
I think you underestimate the attacking power of the opponent when combined with siege(Remember that ppl dont just attack with siege units)
I believe that Maya civ is attractive to newbie players as expert will prefer other national bonuses?Do you(people) agree?

[Ctulu]

[quote]I believe that Maya civ is attractive to newbie players as expert will prefer other national bonuses? Do you(people) agree?[/qoute]

NO, it takes a better player to play the mayan's to their maximum capacity.
And no defensive player would only rely on structures. the mayan's should amass a larger fore of light inf(theirs counter other light inf too)/light cav's fairly easy, accompanied with smaller quantities of other units. Why? Because they build farms cheaper compared to others(Except Japanese) they should gather more food early on. The reduced timber cost = less woodcutter's needed OR Less timber needed for buildings = more to spend on unit's!
Conclusion, more units to take care of pesky siege weapons! Attack with your cavalry from behind(easier said then done, I know)

Also a good tactic, accompany siege close to towers to take out the oppossition. This may seem foolish but ungarrison your other units when they try to take it out. And if he tries to take it out he would be turned into a *pincushion* by the adittional damage/firerate of towers/fortresses/cities

[PTM]

The nation I find myself using alot is the British. But before I explain why, let me explain the why not's.

I played as Germans and I found their lumber mill/grainary availability bonuses less than helpful. It didn't matter to me that I could increase farm output by 20% a little earlier than my enemies, because the blasted commerce cap (+100 at this point) is reached with two cities, possible after Civic 1 is researched at 108f (thanks to Sci 1 at 120w 50g [I think]). My build order doesn't let me get to commerce 3 very quickly, especially since to mass that much resources is harder than advancing to Classical and gathering knowledge. And by the time you have the knowledge needed for Commerce 3 you've already got a third city on the fringe, and your enhancement buildings are easily gotten the normal way (Sci 2) due to your resource pool (Com Cap at +150 [I think] with Commerce 3, 3 cities at 5 farms each = 15 farms or +150... I need a grainary why?). Smelters are nice, very nice, but still that doesn't weigh in as enough to keep me in the gray uniform.

Spanish are annoying. That stupid ship bonus is a waste on 75% of the maps out there and the explorer is worthless because your map is displayed anyway. It is nice seeing the map earlier but hell it's not THAT nice.

Bantu are pretty good, especially after Civic 2 (3 cities while your enemies have 2 is very nice), but again I hit Com Cap really quickly making City 3 a waste. And are cities really that costly to begin with? Saving 20f and 20w is hardly a good bonus (later, when cities DO become costly you have so many resources it's not a viable benefit [besides 4 cities should suit me fine])

I don't like over turtling so the Russians aren't my forte, most certainly. Attrition is helpful, but you shouldn't be in a position when your enemy is invading you in the first place. Attrition doesn't turn the tide of a game, only a single battle, so I try to stay out of situations where attrition would be useful. Oil collection is certainly a plus, but I'm good about getting refineries in each of my cities and, by the time oil comes around I usually have 6+ (due to conquering or just plain building cities so I can fill them with universities/wonders/etc). So 6*33% = TRIPLE production anyway. Couple this with Eiffel and you're set for the game. And of course, there's always the +500 Com Cap (which is somewhat higher on oil for Russia I think; still it's not high enough) as it is, and not even the Motherland can escape the grim fact that oil can't be collected faster than the cap.

Koreans: I really love the extra civilians you get - a VERY nice way to jumpstart your game in the Ancient/Classical. But when it's industrial time the civilians are annoying and I end up killing them to save pop cap. Temples...yay?

And then some other nations are there too but I've explained enough I think...

OK and so WHY the British? I understand you guys will have your own ways to play so there is no RIGHT nation or WRONG strategy, this is (keep in mind) MY way, not the ONLY way or the BEST way.

First, COMMERCE = POWER. I can't BELIEVE how useful a simple 25% more com cap can be, and this manifests itself the best at Commerce 2 (+125 is a huge difference at that time compared to +100). When everyone is stuck at +500 until Information age end-game techs, the Brits are sailing smooth with a +625. Beautiful.

With the British the most limiting effect on my strategies, the Com Cap, is effectively negated. I do hit the Cap with the Brits, but not nearly as often. The only cieling to my production, usually, is the amount of civilians I have and the resources I can get.

So what if I can't get the resources through harvest? My friend says the Japanese are great because they get additional food from farms. Brits don't have that. Brits don't get free timber or food or metal or oil like other nations (or knowledge like Greeks). Is it over? Are the Brits at a weakness? No! The Brits greatest advantage, from my point of view, is WEALTH. I can get a good empire going pretty quick (thanks to a high Com Cap I can get Civic 3 fast and take 35%+ of a map early on), and the British have DOUBLE income from taxation. Wealth is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE IN THE GAME. Why? Well it might not be for other nations, but for British it is THE KEY TO VICTORY. You can buy everything with wealth, save knowledge, and therefore British lack of gather speed or whatever is effectively negated. Oil issues? No problem! Incans have the power of Wealth but they need a mine to do it - mountains can be rare sometimes and mining stuff is certainly harder to do than just researching a simple tech which revolvs on Civic techs, some of the cheapest techs in the library line (Commerce is the most expensive I think, which helps the British even more by slowing the engines of the enemy).

At the end of the game I always get the star for most wealth collected. And therefore I never have resource issues. That little quick buy/sell grid in the up left of the screen OWNS. So many times I'll just say "I feel like aging" and just Buy 600+ food. Sure the price goes up but on things like food and wood it's almost always low to begin with and it goes back down quickly (oil is the price issue on most maps, but oil comes in industrial and by then I already have 10,000+ wealth usually). So many times I'll decide to have "some fun" and build 15 nuclear silos, buy a crapload of oil and then just fill them all with nukes and nuke the enemy 15 times, 2 for each city and then some random ones around his territory for good measure. It's SO funny (usually on larger maps 15 nukes isn't going to get your armaggedon) when they yell "YOU *****!!!!".

Towers have LOS + too which is good to compensate for Mayan Towers, that's helpful. Faster ship creation is helpful to compensate for the Spanish free ships and exploration bonuses. Anti-Air is 33% cheaper/faster (I think) which goes a long way towards defending those wonders and oil wells.

Unique units for Brits own too. I'm a big man when it comes to infantry and air power, and highlanders and black watch really get me going. Highlanders OWN musketeers as well as their natural "units-to-counter," and Black Watch do too. Since alot of fighting starts around Enlightenment and alot of games are decided by Industrial-Modern, these two UU's give me a HUGE advantage against enemy infantry. HUGE. I've wiped the floor with enemy foot soldiers with half as many highlanders/black watch (when used correctly). That's just the infantry portion - Air is my other forte, and the Brits got me that too. Lancaster Bombers are great for bombing enemy stuff (I recall bombing a German city called Dresden [coughWW2cough] with 15 Lancasters - sure was funny, and evil, at the same time). And Anti-Air units are also another advantage (time/speed) for British.

All in all, for me, the Brits have it ALL.

- PTM

[Adagio]

Re: Powerful and Weak Civs

Originally posted by Fayadi
Greeks-Scientific bonus arent that great.The factors that led you advance is the resources(esp wealth)

I use the "Long saga" mod, which changes the time to research all techs (Specially Age advantage), to take very long time... I guess with this mod, the Greeks will be real good, because they can research with double speed (Age advantage takes about 30+ minutes... on fast)... I haven't played as them in this game though...

[Fayadi]

Great post PTM,thanks for sharing your nation's strategy.It is time to share's mine and I hope people will start contributing the same too

Turkey

33%Cheaper citizens-mean that you can outproduce Civilians at early game.This advantage might equals or better than Chinese instant creation bonuses.You need food to build citizens.Cheaper citizens means you can build more citizens that any other civ in the early game(except Korean maybe?)

+3 Range and +3 line of sight-Means all your artillery has extra range.You will feel the impact of this bonuses in the late game.MLRS or Rocket Artillery has a range of 28,this is very deadly ,you attack people without them seeing you,MLRS with Range upgrade is better than German's late Tiger Tank or Jaguar Assault Infantry.Howitzer or Artillery(Industrial and Modern) can attack so far away and pound infantry without them seeing you again.

33% cheaper Military Tech-Nice bonus,allows you to upgrade units faster than other civ

+2 siege units per factory- better bonus than Aztec or Mongol's free units

Turkey's military and economic bonuses is of first class,I can argue it is the game's most powerful civ

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by PTM
Bantu are pretty good, especially after Civic 2 (3 cities while your enemies have 2 is very nice), but again I hit Com Cap really quickly making City 3 a waste. And are cities really that costly to begin with? Saving 20f and 20w is hardly a good bonus (later, when cities DO become costly you have so many resources it's not a viable benefit [besides 4 cities should suit me fine])
- PTM

You ignore the best Bantu bonus of all: Increased population cap! If you build the colossus, no one can match your military when you boom. I'll take a 200+ unit miltary any day over any other bonus. And then there's the no military research on unit upgrades. Not huge, but a time saver nonetheless.

But in the end, it's about what strengths play best to your own.

[davepy]

PTM, why not Incans for wealth? Not even the British can beat the Incans at the wealth game.

Having said that, the British are probably my overall favorite civ. I like the Incans too, but the general commerce cap increase by the British seems more effective than the concentrated wealth the Incans receive.

My other favorite civs:

Incans - Like I said above, wealth, wealth and more wealth. The refund for killed units isn't bad either.

Egyptians - Wonders, more farms and not bad with the weath either.

Chinese - Love those instant villagers and merchants. Makes microing so much easier.

Bantu - Ultimate border push civ.

I thought I would love the Koreans because of the extra villagers, but I'm always short on wealth with them, especially early on when the temple bonus doesn't help all that much. Still, not a bad civ for my playstyle.

Civs I don't particularly play well with:

Mongols - This is purely my fault in that I simply suck at raiding. I get my free 6 nomads fine, but I can't seem to micro them well enough to kill unprotected villagers (gotta learn to scout better too) while keeping my econ going 100%.

Russians & Mayans - It's too tempting to turtle with these guys and lends to bad habits.

Nubians, Germans - Couldn't really maximize their strengths. Probably played them wrong (esp. Nubians).

Haven't tried the rest.

[Azrikam]

First, I think BHG did an unbelievable job balancing the civs. They managed to give them big bonuses, so it really matters which civ you are playing, but at the same time kept a lid on the powers so that one civ doesn't have an unfair advantage over the others. Must have been difficult work.

I've got to defend the Russians, though. I played a game with them the other day against 5 Moderate AIs and dominated quite handily. I relied on massive attrition (plus plenty of garrisoned keeps), so I could defend my borders against 4 AI civs at once with a minimal military. All I had to do was knock out supply wagons and hold my own against the enemy long enough for attrition to beat them for me. This meant I could spend my resources on Wonders and research to stay ahead of the pack.

And I'm not even a fan of the Spy unit. If you're keen to bribe units, then the Russians can easily stand up against the rest.

[Hendrik]

I am not a huge fan of the incans. If you are on a map with a lot of mountains, then the wealth bonus can make a big difference early on. A 10 person mine bringing in gold is highly significant. But as the game goes on, taxation income becomes more and more powerful. The brits get more land, and with taxation research, they get an exponential boost. They receive double taxation on top of all the taxation researches.

The Incans are equally powerful or more powerful in the early game, but as the game goes on their strength fades. Smelters upgrade metal production for a mine in a given city, but this DOES NOT in any way effect the gold the incans get. Although the incan player will continue to receive wealth, the amount of wealth harvested from mines will become insignificant compared to taxation and trade. If you have a commerce cap of 500, with the 33% Incan bonus that means a gold cap of 666. If you were to get even HALF of that from gold miners that would be 33 citizens. They need to constantly expand to find new mines to have their bonus contribute.

[Grond]

On the other hand Brits aren't able use all their commerce most of the time. It takes more citizens and more farms and more woodcutters and more mines so you have to invest more for it to pay off. I do like the British though, its just hard to hold the computer off in the beginning on Toughest. I expect they are very rush vulnerable in MP especially versus the Aztecs.

[PTM]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Although the incan player will continue to receive wealth, the amount of wealth harvested from mines will become insignificant compared to taxation and trade.

Exactly. That's precisely why I'm usually the guy with the star for the Wealth at the end of the game, MP or otherwise. If you own even a quarter of the map you'll be the master of wealth if you're British. And, as you expand your empire you don't need to remember to bring miners along with you to keep the wealth flowing. It's so much simpler and more effective to let Taxation bring in the goods for you. The wealth bonus the Incans get is dominant over the Brits early game, as you said, but it fades, especially when it counts (as in when oil is introduced) in the late game. The Brits are a powerful mid-to-late game nation, and that suits my style. I like to get a good econ up and then start the attack in Enligtenment. At this point the Brits start servicing me with awesome UU's and the Brit benefits (high com cap at +625 in Enlightenment vs. +500 for all others and taxation deal) really start putting me in the lead. By the time Lancasters roll around I usually own enough land to simply buy up all the oil I need to build a fleet of them and bomb enemies to the ground.

Originally posted by Grond
It takes more citizens and more farms and more woodcutters and more mines so you have to invest more for it to pay off.

That's definately true Grond. That's why Brits are, for me at least, a mid-to-late game compliment to my strategy. Gunpowder/Enlightenment age is when the British start to rock, and this makes sense knowing their real-life history.

Originally posted by Grond
I expect they are very rush vulnerable in MP especially versus the Aztecs.

I haven't really had an issue with rushing, because I usually am able to get up a tower or two in my cities which I use to cover woodcutters/farmers. But I haven't really been up against a skilled Aztec user yet so I don't know; Mongols can be compensated against with the British Tower LOS+ bonus, making it easier to strike Nomads and easier to cover your civilians as they work. Sometimes I needn't even ring the bell. But yeah, again, British = mid-to-late for me, and rushing is something I do have to consider.

- PTM