Powerful and Weak Civs

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Bridger
ADG, did you build the collosus or taj mahal? Both increase your wealth cap.

Only the Collosus...

Originally posted by PTM
...Which is why British solve that issue, because if you were using them (that is, with Diamonds in your case) you'd have +35% more wealth coming in (due to +35% Com Cap

I wouldn't call it an issue, since I've got more gold than I could spend anyway (I'm at a non-stop war, and keeps building units (also those who costs gold), but by gold keeps going up... even if I somehow stopped all the gold from coming in, I wouldn't have spent all my gold before the game ended anyway...

[Aginor]

Originally posted by ADG
I hear a lot of talk about those wealth gaining Civs, but what is the point with it anyway?

The point is not being poor in the early ages. Strong Wealth means:

1) Faster research than everyone else due to mad full Universities, which other players cannot afford for a while
2) More resources for other things (don't have to sell metal like mad, which makes Heavy Cav a lot more accessible early...handy when Heavy Infantry is a major challenge to build due to boomers' metal shortage caused by selling it all to fill THEIR Universities)
3) the ability to purchase resources when needed for key resource investments (Granary, Lumber Mill and Smelter especially)
4) the ability to start two key Wonders, the Colossus and Terra Cotta, a bit earlier

The advantage diminishes greatly by Enlightenment or so. By that point either you have turned your short-term advantage into a long-term tech and Wonder lead, or you get rolled by Civs that have stronger advantages later.

Personally, I'd rather start fast...I know how to play with the lead, and don't really know how to rally from behind.

[Aginor]

Originally posted by Bridger
The advantage of the Maya is they can boom AND then fend off an attack, no other civ can really do this (cept maybe russia with their awsome light cav/attrition/spies bonuses).

I'd phrase it this way: the main advantage of the Mayans is that a Tower full of Archers basically makes a city impregnable to anything short of Cannon...this is DIRT cheap as city defense goes early on, which presents significant resource and security advantages. You CAN defend with other civs without screwing up your boom, but you have to prepare a lot better with other civs. With the Mayans you can pretty much see an attack coming in Ancient, sound the alarm, lob mad arrows at the other guy while a Barracks elsewhere slams out some archers, flank the attacking force with 4 Archers or so, and that's it for the weakened attackers...cheap, effective, and those Archers can then neatly garrison a quick Tower in Classical for a city impregnable to rushes. With other civs you really have to build the Archers BEFORE company arrives AND have them garrisoned where the attack will hit to not lose any of the defending force...this has a tendency to slow a boom, as you usually have to build the Archers before you hit +100 on both food and wood, and also cannot research Taxation as fast.

Cheaper buildings (especially Farms) don't hurt, but there ARE more effective economic advantages for a good boom...to play the Mayans well you need to take advantage of the big security advantages you get before Gunpowder, and strive to 1) not lag behind in reaching Gunpowder and 2) have a bunch of artillery pieces ready to counter any attempts to smoke your Towers and Forts.

I would argue that the Russians are the exact opposite of the Mayans...actually they are somewhat lousy boomers as all of their advantages show up late. You can't take advantage of Russian spy advantages until Forts make an appearance, and Russian Attrition doesn't really come into its own until Medieval and level 2 Attrition eather. But the Russians are likely to build an impenetrable house if left alone until Gunpowder or later if the player builds sufficient Light Cav and Spies to ensure that Supply Wagons go down fast.

All of the Mayan advantages drop off pretty fast once Gunpowder hits...timber becomes a lot more plentiful and is rarely used to actually build buildings, and Forts' arrow firing abilities become irrelevant...their purpose becomes buying time and halting enemy advances until artillery pieces bring them down.

I only see 3 civs as having meaningful advantages in all Ages, the Brits, Bantu and Egyptians (Brit Commerce cap increase rocks all game, Bantu have fast cities early for a good boom and increased pop cap late, and the Egyptians get extra farms early and the ability to build the Statue and Supercollider unfairly early in the late game). Most civs are geared toward some major early rushing advantage or early boom advantage, with only a couple of civs being really geared towards the late game (Russians and Nubians).

[Fayadi]

Originally posted by Aginor


I'd phrase it this way: the main advantage of the Mayans is that a Tower full of Archers basically makes a city impregnable to anything short of Cannon...this is DIRT cheap as city defense goes early on, which presents significant resource and security advantages. You CAN defend with other civs without screwing up your boom, but you have to prepare a lot better with other civs. With the Mayans you can pretty much see an attack coming in Ancient, sound the alarm, lob mad arrows at the other guy while a Barracks elsewhere slams out some archers, flank the attacking force with 4 Archers or so, and that's it for the weakened attackers...cheap, effective, and those Archers can then neatly garrison a quick Tower in Classical for a city impregnable to rushes. With other civs you really have to build the Archers BEFORE company arrives AND have them garrisoned where the attack will hit to not lose any of the defending force...this has a tendency to slow a boom, as you usually have to build the Archers before you hit +100 on both food and wood, and also cannot research Taxation as fast.

Cheaper buildings (especially Farms) don't hurt, but there ARE more effective economic advantages for a good boom...to play the Mayans well you need to take advantage of the big security advantages you get before Gunpowder, and strive to 1) not lag behind in reaching Gunpowder and 2) have a bunch of artillery pieces ready to counter any attempts to smoke your Towers and Forts.

I would argue that the Russians are the exact opposite of the Mayans...actually they are somewhat lousy boomers as all of their advantages show up late. You can't take advantage of Russian spy advantages until Forts make an appearance, and Russian Attrition doesn't really come into its own until Medieval and level 2 Attrition eather. But the Russians are likely to build an impenetrable house if left alone until Gunpowder or later if the player builds sufficient Light Cav and Spies to ensure that Supply Wagons go down fast.

All of the Mayan advantages drop off pretty fast once Gunpowder hits...timber becomes a lot more plentiful and is rarely used to actually build buildings, and Forts' arrow firing abilities become irrelevant...their purpose becomes buying time and halting enemy advances until artillery pieces bring them down.

I only see 3 civs as having meaningful advantages in all Ages, the Brits, Bantu and Egyptians (Brit Commerce cap increase rocks all game, Bantu have fast cities early for a good boom and increased pop cap late, and the Egyptians get extra farms early and the ability to build the Statue and Supercollider unfairly early in the late game). Most civs are geared toward some major early rushing advantage or early boom advantage, with only a couple of civs being really geared towards the late game (Russians and Nubians).

We do agree on one point,Maya's national bonuses aren't that attractive to good players.The national bonuses of other civs are way more attractive than Maya's

Meaningful advantage towards the 3 ages?You forget the Turks,the French and the Chinese.
Turks-33%cheaper citizens mean you outproduce your opponents citizens
French-Free lumber mill+lumber camp can gather 2 more citizens are important advantages too.You need wood to build farm!It is more flexible than food advantage because you can produce more farm
Chinese-good national advantage throughout the game.More citizens in early game jumpstart your economy.When you are expanding for 2nd or 3rd city,the advantage can be felt too.
In the late game after you researched Global Prosperity,you can create 20 over citizens instantly to make full use of the 999 commerce cap

Germans,Turks and Aztec has powerful units in the late game too.German for the Leopard tank,Turks for the 28 range MLRS/Rocket Artillery and Aztec for Jaguar assault infantry.French can be real good when it build Versailles,the healing rate is good and there is no need to garrison units anymore.Plus cheaper and shorter time creation siege units means you can outproduce MLRS in the late game.MLRS for me is the most powerful unit in the game(of course it won't be effective,if not combined with other units in an attack).Bantu +25% population limit is a huge advantage.You can overwhelm you opponents with larger forces

[Bridger]

I think you guys are missing the point, Maya works well with certain strategies, and certain playstyles. Just because other civs have bonuses that seem to give it an inherent advantage over Maya doesn't mean it will play the same. Maya's bonus works on the near-pure boom concept that NO other civ can pull off (save posibly russia, havn't played them enough to tell).

Name me one other civ that can build nothing but light inf, light cav, and 1 tower per city and still stop a very determined and powerful midieval attack. I don't think there is one, not one as good as maya. The resourses you arn't spending on military are insted working to facilitate your boom. Your selling metal to buy food to age up, insted of spending it on heavy cav/inf.

[Ctulu]

Originally posted by Bridger
I think you guys are missing the point, Maya works well with certain strategies, and certain playstyles. Just because other civs have bonuses that seem to give it an inherent advantage over Maya doesn't mean it will play the same. Maya's bonus works on the near-pure boom concept that NO other civ can pull off (save posibly russia, havn't played them enough to tell).

Name me one other civ that can build nothing but light inf, light cav, and 1 tower per city and still stop a very determined and powerful midieval attack. I don't think there is one, not one as good as maya. The resourses you arn't spending on military are instead working to facilitate your boom. You're selling metal to buy food to age up, instead of spending it on heavy cav/inf.

You got it man!

Originally posted by Fayida
French-Free lumber mill+lumber camp can gather 2 more citizens are important advantages too.You need wood to build farm!It is more flexible than food advantage because you can produce more farm

the French wood advantage is the same , or less good then a cost reduction on farms like the Maya/Japanese

Originally posted by Fayida
French can be real good when it build Versailles,the healing rate is good and there is no need to garrison units anymore

they DON'T need Versailles, their supply waggons heal already!

Originally posted by Fayida
Chinese-good national advantage throughout the game.More citizens in early game jumpstart your economy.When you are expanding for 2nd or 3rd city,the advantage can be felt too.

Not more, Faster. You still have to pay the same price,
I agree on the Turks Citizen, advantage

[Fayadi]

Originally posted by Ctulu

You got it man!


the French wood advantage is the same , or less good then a cost reduction on farms like the Maya/Japanese


they DON'T need Versailles, their supply waggons heal already!


Not more, Faster. You still have to pay the same price,
I agree on the Turks Citizen, advantage

I am trying to say that French's supply wagon is a real powerful addition to your army when they build Versailles and yeah I forget to mention that their wagon heal faster when the wonder is built.Sorry for that mistake.

Right now the point I am debating is that does the playing style of Maya booming with fortress as an "early warning system" works?I dont think so.You guys believe that with Fortress ,you dont need to build large army in the beginning of the game over the reason of early warning system and buying time.Well it isnt flexible you know,the whole concept of Fortress is not really my playing style (or even expert's playing style I believe?).When the enemy is attacking and you start creating your army,I think it is quite late and that's why I believe good players with large army has high chances of defeating Maya player with this playing concept

Playing style of booming and creating army at the same time is a better idea( of course your resource management must be good too) but the value of this playing concept for Maya players is reduced as other Nations provide more suitable national bonuses for the playing style of creating military units "all the time"

[Ctulu]

Originally posted by Fayadi
Playing style of booming and creating army at the same time is a better idea( of course your resource management must be good too) but the value of this playing concept for Maya players is reduced as other Nations provide more suitable national bonuses for the playing style of creating military units "all the time"

I play maya effectivly that way, you should even have more units (light cav/light infantry(they are cheaper compared to others for Mayan)). It's not that a Mayan can depend totally on his towers/fortresses. He can depend MORE on them (like british) then others. And buying time doesn't mean you can wait till enlightment(or whatever) to start producing units! In fact you should be quicker on the unit production with a Mayan, thanks to cheaper stables/barracks/siege factories. you're boom should also be quicker thanks to the cost reduction (except for Bantu)!


Ah what the hell, we're never gonna agree, let's call it a day. I see their power, you don't, that's it!

[ASSSSCAT]

You could settle this really easily by just playing an MP match against each-other, Maya vs British.

[Fayadi]

Originally posted by Ctulu


I play maya effectivly that way, you should even have more units (light cav/light infantry(they are cheaper compared to others for Mayan)). It's not that a Mayan can depend totally on his towers/fortresses. He can depend MORE on them (like british) then others. And buying time doesn't mean you can wait till enlightment(or whatever) to start producing units! In fact you should be quicker on the unit production with a Mayan, thanks to cheaper stables/barracks/siege factories. you're boom should also be quicker thanks to the cost reduction (except for Bantu)!


Ah what the hell, we're never gonna agree, let's call it a day. I see their power, you don't, that's it!

Thanks for your time and you have done a wonderful job convincing me that all the civ's are balanced.Maybe Maya is equally strong with other civ,but I just dont like the national bonus.I dont appreciate their national strength as I dont value building bonus over other economic or military bonus. From the debate,I am beginnning to see the advantage of Maya but the problem here is I just dont appreciate building bonuses.

Let's call it a day!I agree with some of your points (maybe totally after I understand the full use of Maya national bonus) though,so dont say we are never gonna agree.

[PTM]

Haha finally the Great Mayan Debate seems to have closed. It appears the Mayans are a very controversial nation indeed!

I'm glad to see so many players realizing that in RoN the nations are so well balanced there is NO true "best" nation, and neither is there a "worst" - only "different" nations exist, and each nation will suit each player in a different way. It's just like in Starcraft. In SC my friend and I use Terran because it suits our style better and we are more adept at using Terran advantages. My other friend, however, plays Zerg mostly. We don't have advatanges over one another that make it an unfair game - the same is true in RoN. A militarily powerful nation and an economically powerful nation may not be strong at the same things, but each have their own powers and their own weak points, so a good player can never be thinking "damn, I got a bad nation."

- PTM

[Ctulu]

It was an honour debating with you, Fayadi!

Haha finally the Great Mayan Debate seems to have closed. It appears the Mayans are a very controversial nation indeed!

I'm glad to see so many players realizing that in RoN the nations are so well balanced there is NO true "best" nation, and neither is there "worst" - only "different" nations exist, and each nation will suit each player in a different way. It's just like in Starcraft. In SC my friend and I use Terran because it suits our style better and we are more adept at using Terran advantages. My other friend, however, plays Zerg mostly. We don't have advatanges over one another that make it an unfair game - the same is true in RoN. A militarily powerful nation and an economically powerful nation may not be strong at the same things, but each have their own powers and their own weak points, so a good player can never be thinking "damn, I got a bad nation."

Statement of the year, totally agree bro!
And sorry to have bottered so many people with the Mayan debate

______________________________
*we are just a bunch of nerds with nothing else to do then Ron*

[tetleytea]

My vote is thumbs up for the Mayas. You can outrace others' rush to Wonders even when they've got a head start. Really screws them up. I do that very regularly vs. Tough AI.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is the advantage when your UU is Light Infantry, like Aztecs. You can get Terra Cotta.

[ded_man_walkin]

Actuaally youre very wrong buddy. Lemme tell u a story about me playing some dude called kamIkaze_agent or something, on the land random map (he was greks, I was random French).

I had a good start, since my scout had found those o called "good y boxes" in the beggining. So it meant a fast classical and therefore a quick rush. After like-10 minutes or so, I waltz into his town with my chevys- and what do i see? A huge horde of pikemen and Javileneers (he was in Medievel already)heading my way. Thus my first atack was foiled.

Now i tried to be more strategical and conservative andpull him out until industrial, or later-when I could do my infamous blitzkrieg-attack him with massive forces supported by many tanks and aircraft. The main objective was now to advance faster, than he would. However, for some reason (the research bonuses no doubt) , the guy was always ahead of me an age, he always had better units, and more resources.

Every time I atacked he repelled me ingeniously, causing great losses to my economy and military. The combination of Stratitorai, pikemen and arquebusiers inflicted great losses upon my atacking units. Pike men in the front, ripping up my knights, arquebusers in the back mopping up enemy ranged, and an ingenious flanking maneuver by his HCav's upon my archers.

One thing that puzzled me was the fact that he might have been a good defencer, but he never launched a successful offensive against my cities, and my economy, and he never seemed to be able to supply and reinforce his units properly while in the enemy territory.

In the end when I hit modern, I had more territorey captured than him, and most of the oilfields (ha there was a lake in the middle of the map which i controlled that had a lot of offshore oil fields) too. So in the end-long story short, I had him locked up in a corner of the map. He was too short of oil, to advance to information, and it all ended with me, nuking out his army which was stationed in one place. Before he could build another, i had Overran his cities with tanks. The end.

The guy was definetly a noob, he Never effectively attacked me, but this little show of arms, proves the fact that there are no "sucky" civs in RoN, like there were in AoK or even more so in AoE1, Its just how good you are with a civ. As for mayans, I never really played them a lot, and I don't know how they will go with me.

[Ctulu]

...and who might ber wrong about what?

Actually youre very wrong buddy. Let me tell you a story about me playing some dude called kamIkaze_agent or something, on the land random map (he was Greeks, I was random French).