dev planning, anyone done it?

[Ianpolaris]

Asleepathewheel,

I did say in general a human that micromanages will outperform an AI anytime. That averages out over a fairly long game....so even an occasional error will not always kill the human.

Secondly, I never said that Dev Plans should be eliminated. Please do not put words in my mouth. The original question dealt with how useful they were and IMHO they aren't that useful once you have learned the interface.

The sad fact is, I have found it is easier to preplan all the DEAs than use DevPlans largely because I can get some feel for how my empire is growing by assigning the DEAs while there is no information as to how exactly a Dev Plan will affect the growth of any particular planet (by information, I mean hard numbers I can evaluate).

The point is that for the "casual gamer" DevPlans aren't accessable which means that they have failed in their purpose almost by definition.

-Polaris

[Anglophile]

Ianpolaris, I am going to have to agree with Togas, you have given up the game so you have forfeited your right to complain (especially in a thread nominally on the subject of Dev Plans). You made your point and I respect your point of view and agree with much of what you said the first time, the second time, the third time, the fourth time, ...., the nth time. We also are not stupid, we get it, move on.

As for Dev Plans, I am not clever enough to go into the code and find out what the defaults are. I have worked out that New means Industry DEA first (even if one's in the red with minerals), Mine DEA second, Space Super Fighter (once available) in the 1st military slot (bad), AstroUni (once avail) in the 1st Planetary slot (also not my first choice). Core Mineral Rich gets you a couple of farms, one R&D centre, enough mines for a surplus, the gov DEA and the rest industry DEAs. I don't know whether there is any way to use any of the plans except the five player choices (which are actually enough for me: Manufacturing, Mining, Farming, Research and Defense). I don't know if I do define them whether the Viceroy follows my version or the predefined version, so my system ignores them. I have the Empire setting on Specialized and use my defined plans in the Class 1 & 2 slots (sometimes the same plan, sometimes not). I do micromanage the critical planets but leave the rest to the Viceroy. My experience is that the Viceroy does follow the plans and generally puts the right DEAs in the right regions (e.g. Mines in Hostile Mountains and Bioharvest in Alluvial Plains, not vice versa). Just fine for most of my planets.

The Viceroy is not nearly as good at the Military and Planetary queues, although in the long run which order the planetary improvements get built is not that critical. The tendency to build infinite numbers of transports and land units is annoying but easy enough to control. All I want is a 'Lock' button for the various production queues so I could stop the Viceroy from returning the sliders to whatever default values 'he' wants, especially the Military Queue. That said, the Viceroy does do a pretty good job of balancing things when something new becomes available so I don't have to micromanage unless I want to.

And, off topic, that is one of the strengths of the game. First, the documentation sucks and the control system is not exactly obvious (I still have no idea what the system and empire tax settings have to do with anything). The first time through (to Turn 120 in a Huge 3 Arm galaxy, where I was tucked safely half way down one of the arms - so lots of time for the learning curve), I never really felt I was in control at all and was not convinced that I was going to like the game. Second time through (restart), using Dev Plans, I started not only to feel in control, but really was at least strongly influencing my Empire's direction. Third time through (up to Turn 70, great starting position on the southern fringe of the main galaxy body and in the Senate for the first time), I am really enjoying the game and am comfortable with the balance between micro and macro management that I've found. Back to the start of the paragraph - the game allows people to find their own preferred balance, which is a lot more than most games do. Yah, the game is not perfect; the AI seems agressive enough in declaring war, but not so far at prosecuting them. Yah, the graphics are surprisingly limited/uninspiring but I don't but a TBS game for graphics - but I do wish I had some and some more ship graphic options. But this is the unpatched version so better times may be ahead and version 1.00 is enjoyable for me and, to this point, remarkably bug free and stable. Of course, I've been working for a long time so a $50 investment is a non-factor and I thought MOO1 was a much more challenging (except for the Antarans early on - who were essentially impossible) game than MOO2, so my expectations were not impossibly high, nor was a looking for MOO 2.n, so my acceptance of MOO3 on its own merits might be an easier road for me than for others.

[Ellestar]

Well, AI

I thought - to add one more paragraph or not? I see i must add it.

Even if AI will be more agressive, better manage colonies etc., then i must micro some more and that's all. In SMAC AI gets ~1,5x advantage every turn. Say 2x in 2 turns for simplicity. It's ~1000x in 20 turns or 1.000.000.000.000.000 in 100 turns. Well, it's easy to win even under these conditions.

It's easy to win in any TBS game against AI, even if AI cheating. If you want to win, you'll win. So, playing singleplayer is only training before MP.

Ianpolaris

I think i am the person who can navigate interface faster than anyone else in the game at least 95% of the time. I played StarCraft for 4+ years, not with friends, but with gosu players also (Orky team, they are also in [PG] clan), on tournaments etc. Yes, i am not that fast in FastClick, but i can click faster in TBS because i can think faster - RTS Micro is another matter, it's not like TBS micro except clicking itself. I have 11+ years TBS experience, so in overall TBS experience i'm losing mostly to 30+ years old (i am 22) players, but i can click much faster then they can - so have somthing to outperform they on the long run. Last thing - MOO3 expirience, but this is a matter of time.

In most other TBS games it's not an issue - FastCick don't give you an advantage (or small advantage), and experience means much more.

I think it's hm 'unfair' to use advantage at fastclick, but i also don't want to lose because another one using it. So, the MP game is unplayable.

P.S. Some advices on FastCilck (advices from players better than me in FastClick)

1) Good devices
1.1) Mouse
Best - Last DualOptical models from first released to last - Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0; Logitech MX300, Logitech MX500, MS Blue.
There are some differencies in some features, but they are not important - because you can't use it effectively as a human, so choose from MX300 (classic form) and all others (ergonomic design) - what form you prefer. Overall - best quality, best precision, cursor never moves crazy no matter how fast you move mouse.

2nd best - Mitsumi Classic (ball mouse). Best ball mouse - no alternatives. Try to buy several from other places and choose best.

Never use non-dualoptical optical mouse (crazy cursor movement on fast movement speed), any wireless mouse (extremly heavy).

1.2) MousePad

Func Surface 1030 (best); Everglide Optical, X-Trac Pro Optical Mouse Pad - also good choices.

For Mitsumi Classic you can use fabric/cloth (don't know which word is better here) surface with rubber base/foundation, you must easily bend it to pipe.

1.3) MouseSkates - for less friction.

2) Software

2.1) MouseWare - if you have Logitech mouse download last version from logitech site. Acceleration set to 'NO', rate to 200 Hz (PS/2 mouse only).

2.2) Not using mouseware, PS/2 mouse - download (search engines) PS2Rate adjuster - there are many versions of it and set rate to 200 Hz also.

PS/2 has maximum rate 200 Hz (almost any mouse with soft, default mostly 80 Hz), USB - always 150 Hz, but some mouses has 800 DPI resolution only then plugged to USB port.

IMHO rate is not that important to TBS, so PS/2 (200 Hz)=USB (150 Hz).

3) Some training

Download piegates.exe from somethere (try to search 'piegates.exe' - only 'piegates' don't give you good results). World record is like 310, good result is 250 (not from the first time of course). Play ~3 games (30 secs each) several times a day.

www.missionred.com -> Reflex I, Reflex II, Reflex III
Good results - 420.000 (Reflex I), 1.200.000 (Reflex II), best - see top rankings.

[Ianpolaris]

Anglophile,

I paid $50 for a game that I could not return (I was forced to give it away). That gives me the right to complain. Deal.

-Polaris

[Ellestar]

Ianpolaris

Of course IMHO that is one reason why the documentation (and I don't just mean the manual) is so poor.

Well i also think so

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=1773930#post1773930

Anglophile

The Viceroy is not nearly as good at the Military and Planetary queues, although in the long run which order the planetary improvements get built is not that critical.

This is a joke???
1% advantage gives you 7.316 advantage on the long run (200 turns). THIS IS NOT CRITICAL??? So, if i have 700 ships vs your 100 and 700 planets vs your 100, you somehow want to win? Tell me please how you could manage to win under these conditions?

[Ianpolaris]

Ellestar,

Great minds think alike

FWIW, I read your post and agree completely. I normally don't do "me too" posts, but I wanted you to know that I read it and agreed.

-Polaris

[Anglophile]

Ellestar, I believe that maybe I have not been clear re the question you have asked me (because your question is meaningless on the point I was trying to make). So to clarify:

Each turn, each planet gets to spend PPs or AUs or whatever it is that is spent on up to 5 things (from the bottom up) - R&D, Terraforming, Planet Regional Improvement (i.e DEAs et al), Planet Wide Improvements, Military Items.

My comment was that the order that that the Planet Wide Improvements are built is not that critical. I stand by that remark. I really don't care much which pollution abatement system gets built first or whether I build the AstroUni before or after the Decomposition Center. Maybe I am missing something; maybe you misunderstood my comment to mean that the order of DEAs and/or Military Units get built is not important. These are clearly critical; the first of which is governed by those old Dev Plans this thread is supposedly about, the other is the one area of the game I do totally micromanage (although sometimes the Viceroy chooses what I would have).

Before I get argumentative about this, I would like some clarification about which one of us is missing the point.

Ianpolaris: yes you do have the right to complain (although caveat emptor holds even in the US where everything bad is always someone (who can generally be sued for millions of $$$) else's fault); I do question whether I am the right person to complain to as there is the square root of squat I can do about your issues.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Anglophile
I do question whether I am the right person to complain to as there is the square root of squat I can do about your issues.

vmxa1 - So much for discussing the strategy of development plans. Maybe you should start another thread and try again, and this time those who just want to whine about the game might kindly avoid this blatant threadjacking.

[sloejack]

This has been one of the weakest threads I've ever read on a given subject. For those of you who are really interested in how dev plans seem to work and real guidance in using them, check out the moo3 forum from the moo3.com site. I don't have the exact url to the thread at the moment but it's stuck to the top of the strategy forum there so it shouldn't be too hard to find.

[darcy]

Since no one knows how planets are categorized or how dev plans are prioritized, a thread about this subject was doomed to go off-topic.

[geneo2036]

DEV planning doesn't work! And despite those that say it does, it doesn't.

Here's why. I played a game on huge galaxy and my empire ran up a huge surplus of food/minirals like the Viceroys tend to do.

So I changed every single dev plan to INdustry (all 3 choices per planet type). And not only did the AI not rearange some of the old DEAs to Industrial but even on new planets the Viceroy was still trying to build food/mining and research (which was pointless since i was at max tech already).

I don't know what you guys are talking about with DEA plans working but I have to manuelly change all my DEAs do do what I want and its a MAJOR pain as it takes many turns to scrap a bunch of DEAs and if you forget to go back every couple tunrs the Viceroy will start building a new dea (likely what was there before) whether if was on of off!!



After 50+ hours with this game- I have found almost nothing fun and a whole mess of frustration.

Every aspect of this game seems broken to me- Hell name a system and I'll give you 3 major problems with it.
Simply nothing in this game works

[vmxa1]

Remember that you will have many plans in effect for a given planet. ALL PLANETS, the two classes you see in the box and any othrs that apply such as Yellow/Red/Green.
If the AI is not acting fast enough, I make a player defined pair that are the same and slap them in. This seems to force the AI to do my bidding.

[Ianpolaris]

vmxa1,

That might be true, but you really can't deny geneo's underlying point:

It is actually easier to preplan all your DEAs in advance (and turn the Planetary AI OFF) than it is to use (and constantly change Dev Plans) AND it gives you better control. That isn't exactly stellar macromanagement.

-Polaris

[vmxa1]

I am not sure I want to deny them, ok I will. I am able to get the AI to build what I want in a fairly timely manner with proper use of my dev plans. Is it intuitive or easy, no.
All I was saying is before you claim it does not work, be sure you understand that more than just the two plans you see are being used.

[Ianpolaris]

Vmxa1,

I am not saying that it isn't possible. All I am saying is this:

Can you deny that it is just as easy to develope all planetary DEAs by hand (when you first colonize)?

Furthermore, isn't it obvious that you will always get more efficient results by so doing?

Given those two things above, is it any wonder why many of us regard DevPlans as pretty pointless?

-Polaris