No Ship Refit Not Such A Bad Thing

[viciouscycle]

Yes, refitting in MOO2 was too powerfull. It was too easy to build an empty hull (no weapons, no specials, no shields, no computer) cheaply and sit in a system with a Space Academy and rack up experience points and then outfit it later using advanced tech.

IMO some limited upgrades should be available for ships as was suggeted by Kc7mxo... you should be able to change/upgrade some ship systems but not others. Either that, or allow total refitting but make it so that one reaches a point where upgrading an old ship so outweighs the cost of building a brand new one that no one would do it.

Of course this may be very difficult to implement in a game and may only add unecessary complication. That's no fun.

I have read much grumbling and complaing on the IGMOO boards and some here as well regarding the cutting of features. I think what it all boils down to is that everyone has their own idea of the perfect game and everyone is going to wish something was different about the game. When they finally get a chance to play it (which is soon, thankfully) that is. But the developers are in this to make money and you have to produce a game that will sell well and have mass appeal.

This is NOT a dig on the developers at all. I think IG and QS care a great deal about gamers, from what I have seen and read, especially over the past few months. Seriously, these people have done a great job and made some gutsy decisions which left them open to lots of ridicule. I thought these people were insane when they didn't release the game last year and instead decided that the game just wasn't working as well as it should and proceeded to make a bunch of changes. But they pulled through and I'm confident that we'll have a great game on our hands.

Anyway, the point I was getting at is that everyone has their own perception of the perfect game and there is no way that the developers could have made MOO3 without people complaining about some feature or another. Impossible. Some people like refits... some don't... no worries. If the game is fun, that's all that really matters.

Maybe if I won the lottery I could afford to hire a team to build the "perfect game." It would be perfect for me, but probably everyone else would say it stinks!

For the record, the perfect game (TBS game, that is) right now would be a cross between MOO, Pacific War, MULE, SMAC, and Third Reich. But that's just me.

[chyndonax]

Originally posted by Imperator Max

My ideal would be a more realistic, limited upgrade capability. Constrained to minor upgrades and replacements of smaller systems. For instance new fire control system, additional point defence weapons, that kind of thing... which is what happens with "real" ships

Now that would be ideal as it is compleatly realistic. The Navy did something of the sort with the Iowa class destroyers for the gulf war. New electronics, new nav, new targeting but same guns and same engine (just a little shinier). No new nuclear powered engine, no tomahawk missles (I think) just the old made much better. 'Course, simple upgrading procedures would be needed.

[booklord]

I think it comes down to this

1) Ship casualties tend to be high
2) Pirates can be handled by obsolete vessels
3) Crew experience no longer is a factor
4) No longer have command points. ( which was the number one factor in Moo2 for refitting ships IMHO )
5) Some reports indicate that it takes longer for ships to be rendered obsolete.

The practice of refitting ships may have just been rendered obsolete.

[ShivaX]

I love you guys, I'm at my wits end on the IG forums arguing with people whining about lack of a refit and how its ruined the game.
Its nice to see some intellegent discussion about it for a change.

[Noone]

Id agree with ShivaX i until recently have been a IG forum person, but the complaining has driven me out.

Although the point about the US constantly upgrading their fleet is true, but not all countries have the same amount of money. Their are some really old ships in Australia navy, but then again they just get assigned to chase boat people (equivilent of pirates you could say). Refitting ships would be even more unlikly is some of the poored mations around the world.

ahhhhh it's good to see a intelligent discussion

[rzawrekta]

Hey Noone,

What? The ESP isn't an intelligent discussion?

=P


but yeah i had left those forums for a bit too, mainly because of the whining-antiwhining whining thing going on..


and on the refit ships bit

i think you can just keep your old ships as system ships and cut down on pirating and stuff.

not sure thogh..

[gunnergoz]

My analogy about naval ship upgrades is older but I think more to the point...Recall WW2:

- US "4-stack" WW1 era destroyers were not used on the line but were relegated to convoy escort...they did not get "upgraded" to Fletchers and Summners.

- Elder WW1 BB's for the most part were relegated to shore bombardment (unless they were unhappily thrust into ship-to-ship battle such as happened on occasion.)

- Early CV's were for the most part left to ferry aircraft or train pilots

My point is, there is plenty of precedent to prohibit unlimited "upgrading" of obsolescent systems, including tanks, planes and ships. Systems are ultimately limited by the technology of the day. Just because you can launch cruise missles from a WW2 BB doesn't necessarily mean it is the best platform for the job.

MOO2's upgrade system was fun but after a while it became a pain for the anal-retentive amonst us (your's truly included) because one just HAD to track down all those obsolete ships and upgrade them...heaven forbid you went to battle with a doomstar that had last year's shields and missles!

I'm going to like MOO3 a lot more, I think...

[Craig P.]

It was never all that difficult for me to track out-of-date ships in MoO2 because I used a "series" number in the design name. e.g. CG Mk IV, etc. Probably wouldn't be such a good idea in MP (unless I started using deceptive names, like BBG for a direct-fire ship, Mk II for a seventh-generate ship, etc.).

[Kc7mxo]

MOO2's upgrade system was fun but after a while it became a pain for the anal-retentive amonst us (your's truly included) because one just HAD to track down all those obsolete ships and upgrade them...heaven forbid you went to battle with a doomstar that had last year's shields and missles!

So, you didn't like moo2's upgrade system because you were irritating by your own use of it?

[star mouse]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
But ships do have a lifetime. The best way to simulate that would be to not allow refits to change armor/structural technology, but only the weapons and other subsystems.

I think this is closest to the way I would have done refits. Some things can be changed, some things cannot.

• Armor and structure is an integral part of the ship and changing it would be impossible. When these become hopelessly outdated, scrapping the ship is better.
• There is no equivalent to shield technology on a modern naval vessel, so some speculation is necessary. It's not unreasonable to assume for gameplay purposes that a shield generator is a device that's an integral part of the hull that cannot be changed, thus giving an incentive to scrap a ship rather than refit it. Alternatively, it's just as easy to assume that a shield generator is a little box that can be changed easily.
• Weapons can be easily changed over, but it's probably okay to assume that there would be limits. A ship that was originally constructed as a missile ship with 8 missile slots would be far easier to convert into a missile ship with 8 slots of a newer class of missile than a beamer with 8 slots of the newest energy weapons. Generally, a refit should only change one weapon for another of the same class.

While I would initially miss the ability to refit a ship, I guess MOO3 would be designed in such a way that refitting is unnecessary. What I would do to get around this would be to keep ships under construction as close to the cutting edge of technology as possible.

[Capt Dizle]

The bottom line is that there is a trend in game design to make games more simple for the following reasons:

1. Easier to produce, i.e. cheaper.
2. More attractive to the mass market. (dumb down)
3. Makes the game less satisfying in the long run, therefore gamer is ready to buy another game sooner.

The last is the centerpiece of Infrogrames business strategy.

So, absent evidence to the contrary I assume Moo3 will suck in comparison to Moo2.

[Kc7mxo]

The bottom line is that there is a trend in game design to make games more simple for the following reasons:

1. Easier to produce, i.e. cheaper.
2. More attractive to the mass market. (dumb down)
3. Makes the game less satisfying in the long run, therefore gamer is ready to buy another game sooner.

Um. I somehow doubt number 1 applies to moo3.

[kalbear]

jimmytrick, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary that MOO3 is simple, unfun, or will suck compared to MOO2. That evidence is in the form of beta testers, previews, data dumps and the sheer amount of work involved in the game.

I'm not going to go over every detail of all the things that have been changed or improved, but the one thing that stands out in my mind is this: many of the beta testers say that they simply cannot go back to playing Moo2 for all sorts of reasons after they've played Moo3.

That alone makes me believe that it's a superior game. The analogy I would use is a mousewheel-enabled mouse. Before it existed I seemed to do fine. Now that it does exist, I can't go back to a wheeless mouse.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


So, you didn't like moo2's upgrade system because you were irritating by your own use of it?

Well, my sarcastic eyerolling laddie, if you'd bothered to read my post, you'd see what my point was. Upgrades are not going to make or break a game, but they should at least add positively to the experience. Their deletion from MOO3 does not at all disappoint me for that reason.

My experience with MOO2 was that the upgrade system was an unnecessary complication, especially in the latter stages of gameplay where there were numerous planetary systems and ships to manage.

Before you flame, read, boyo.

Oh yes, your use of "irritating" is in the wrong tense. It's correct use is as in the sentence: "I find it irritating when ignorance is disguised as annoyance."

Have a nice day.

[Kc7mxo]

Well, my sarcastic eyerolling laddie, if you'd bothered to read my post, you'd see what my point was. Upgrades are not going to make or break a game, but they should at least add positively to the experience. Their deletion from MOO3 does not at all disappoint me for that reason.

Well, I did read your post. And I didn't flame you. I was merely teasing you. . .

Because your basic reasoning for not liking refits in moo2, was that you felt this uncontrollable urge to use it all the time.

Oh yes, your use of "irritating" is in the wrong tense. It's correct use is as in the sentence: "I find it irritating when ignorance is disguised as annoyance."

O dear" u is flamin me gramir und me spiling! i is deviastoted!