No Ship Refit Not Such A Bad Thing

[Imperator Max]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


Yes, we eventually dump ships. But then you don't scuttle a destroyer just because a new type of cruise missle comes out, do you?

That's exactly my point. You don't scrap older vessels, it's just not practicable. But nor can rebuild them to the point where they are effectively as whole new ship. Even with those shiny new missiles, that older vessel won't be as good as a new ship (which will also have new engines, hull design, etc). Which means, even with no refit at all in the game, it is a more realistic (and interesting) situation to have a fleet made up of vessels of differing ages and capabilities.

Originally posted by Kc7mxo


But ships do have a lifetime. The best way to simulate that would be to not allow refits to change armor/structural technology, but only the weapons and other subsystems.

That's also what I was trying to say. It’s also not what MOOII did.

Of course, as an aside, upgrading armour, structure and engines etc in real ships has been done... look at the refit jobs both Italy and Japan undertook with their older battleships before the Second World War. But this isn't a cost effective way to go about things. For the costs involved, both powers could have built brand new, and far superior, vessels and had change left over. The reason for doing the rebuilds was they were prevented by treaty from building any new capital ships: so they had to squeeze every last drop from their existing ones. But anyway, that's just a side comment.

Jon...

[Kc7mxo]

I hope ship refitting makes it in at some point. But if it doesn't, I suppose I'm cool with that.

The way I figure it, there ought to be just some button in the reserves list to refit ships for some set amount of money.

[LastFromVega]

I read some of you are fans of refitting, for the sake of realism, or else... The more I was reading the AAR (esp. the latest ones from the prime floater) the less disappointed I was on refits disappearing... true it was awesome in moo2, true it was a pain to track also... though I used numbers for generations (Nexus IV, Golgoth VII, etc...) to track generations as most of us did. Best it is off, for everyone in the MP games, so we'll focus more on tactis than on 'where is this bloody outdated 3rd fleet, here is it, you crap 1/3 to Orion, 1/3 to Sol, 1/3 to Proxima, get yourself upgraded and comeback asap!'...

plus it will add lots of tactics... on top of when we'll have enough new techs to have the design templates upgraded, there is also this feint of sending old hulls to the ennemy, for them to grow over-confident and strike back immediately, and fall on the latest generation of ships.

anyway we'll test that in MP!

[Kc7mxo]

plus it will add lots of tactics... on top of when we'll have enough new techs to have the design templates upgraded, there is also this feint of sending old hulls to the ennemy, for them to grow over-confident and strike back immediately, and fall on the latest generation of ships.

Send your people to die as a feint. Uh huh. That'll be REAL popular with your citizens. . .

[LastFromVega]

Kc7mxo - is the AI that advanced as one has unrest when one looses ships?

[Kc7mxo]

Kc7mxo - is the AI that advanced as one has unrest when one looses ships?

Heh, ok, its probably not. But I still think its mean to suicide your soldiers for a feint. Even if they're not real, you still are. Remind me never to serve in your armada . . .

[BigBopper]

Political Prisoners to the front!
The feint always has, and will be, a proven military tactic. Who says they have to fight to the death anyways? You could have your old fleet retreat once they start to lose. Some ships may be lost, but that’s the cost of war. We’ll have to see what kind of sensors, etc. the game will have before we know if this will work. It may be as simple as scanning a system, or sending a lone scout ship, to “see” the capabilities of the enemy fleet.

[patrickjb53]

I think with good game design the loss of the 'Refit' option will not take away from game play. We'll find out soon.

[BigBopper]

I would like to see a realistic refit option. In reality the cost to refit a ship is based on the level of technology when that ship was built. To put upgraded electronics on a destroyer built in the 80's would make sense. To totally overhaul a WWII destroyer, adding new weapons, electronics, engines, etc. etc. would cost far more than building a new destroyer. The system I would like to see is one where the cost to upgrade each level of tech, from the original lvl used to build the ship, goes up very fast. So going from lasers to gattling lasers may be feasible, but going from lasers to disrupters would be insanely expensive.

[Epistax]

I'll miss refitting, but it never really made sense either.

That's like taking an already used diesel submarine, and making it nuclear. Sure it's possible, but the cost is tremendous. Now imagine changing the structure too! When it comes down to it, refitting in Moo2 was selling the old ship and using the cash to buy progress on the new one.

**
However, it would be wonderful if they added an option for a weapon to be 'modular'. Makes it take maybe 20% more space, 10% more cost, but can be exchanged for other weapons when in a system with a station.

Damn I am good.

[Kc7mxo]

I'll miss refitting, but it never really made sense either.

That's like taking an already used diesel submarine, and making it nuclear. Sure it's possible, but the cost is tremendous. Now imagine changing the structure too! When it comes down to it, refitting in Moo2 was selling the old ship and using the cash to buy progress on the new one.

Not neccessarily. I tended to refit my ships constantly. I prefer to keep them up to date with the best technology and the most minaturized version of their weapons. And this is what happens with real naval vessels. When a new type of cruise missles comes out, we have the destroyer show up at the dock, we pull out the old launchers (if neccessary) and slap on the new ones.

Admittably, you could change a little more than was reasonable in moo2. Like you said, you were basically scrapping the old for the new. Which is why you shouldn't be able to refit the structure or the armor. But I see absolutely no reason you can't refit weapons. There is already size requirements to think of within designs, so anything that fits, could be concievably put in.

And if I was a captain I'd sure would rather have those mark X phasers in my ship that tear up the enemy than the mark VIIs which barely put a dent in their shields.

[Sarxis]

Well, truthfully, I like having the refit option, but I rarely ever used it. Scrapping old vessels and building new ones is just as good to me, though I know the 'crew experience' wasted factor does play a part in that. But even that is no big deal.

Right now, IMHO, the biggest deal is....


GET THE GAME ON THE STORE SHELVES!!!!

[Kc7mxo]

GET THE GAME ON THE STORE SHELVES!!!!

Damn right.

[GePap]

I don't think missing an upgrade system will do much to ruin the game. It would be nice to have a simpler version, such as automatic upgrades for a price (your ships have certain systems upgraded automatically once they can be sued, but only if you budget for it) but it is no game breaker.

[Straybow]

Kc7mxo, we've also got a certain battleship sitting on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

But seriously, the USofA has many mothballed hulls, and yet new hulls are laid down. It is always better to design a new ship from the keel up, it is usually cheaper to retrofit an existing vessel, with the compromise being various inefficiencies that wouldn't exist in a new design.

Vessels refitted with entirely different weapon systems from the original design should have some penalty. For example, BB62 New Jersey was refitted with cruise missile batteries. A new ship design of the same tonnage would have more efficient storage and loading arrangements, or the refit would sacrifice storage capacity to eliminate an efficiency penalty.

Anyway, I agree with Harry except with regard to computer/control systems. The only reason for upgrading is to keep crew experience, given higher costs for removing and replacing old systems with new. However, control systems should be easily upgraded unless your race chooses the "really short-sighted about making allowances for exponential growth of computer abilities" option.