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No Ship Refit Not Such A Bad Thing

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  • No Ship Refit Not Such A Bad Thing

    While I like upgrading as much as the next guy it's loss is not such a bad thing.
    Look at it like this: not being able to upgrade should force you to consider your timing when building new designs and scrapping old ones. Is the old ship mkII too old to cut it? or can it last a few more cycles? Has our tech advanced enough to justify the cost of a new fleet? or should we research the next big missle? Strategic decisions in a game about strategy.
    Also consider that upgrading can and usually does contribute to micromanagement hell. No upgrade no worries about finding every little old ship and docking it for upgrades

  • #2
    Also with the task-force system, older ships are not so bad to have. They can always "soak up the fire" for your newer ships. Or you can scrap them to get the resources back to build new ones, at 50% it think, which is good for this kind of game.

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    • #3
      I agree, not having refits sounds like a good cure to the micromanagement hell a moo2 endgame was.

      I don't think you can point your finger at *any* feature (or lack thereof) and claim it is bad without seeing the big picture, i.e. playing the game.

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      • #4
        The dynamic of old ships and new ships could work similarly to that in the original Moo... though the class-limit in the original Moo was rather annoying, the dynamic of having your old ships eventually grow obsolete is relatively realistic and could be interesting compared to the rather unrealistic UBER-refit capability of Moo2 ships

        That said, it's a GAME and it would have been nice to upgrade ships with anything you want, but it's not an enormous loss to lose it.
        Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
        Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
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        • #5
          disagreed

          Personally this is a huge loss for me. I really like the strategic component of being able to upgrade existing designs to maximize longevity. What I hate is to be stuck with a bunch of outdated ships draining away maintanance resources and that alone discourages me from building new ones, although I do agree it does take away a large chunk of micromanagement. But what the heck - it's turned based and I get all the time I need each turn!

          IG/QS - Pls! Pls! Please put this feature back!! Or at least in future patches!
          If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

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          • #6
            It would indeed be nice to have refits in some form. But, like many here it seems, Iím not too bothered if they're not there.

            It is, after all, a lot more realistic to have a fleet of ships of varying ages and capabilities. And while, of course, ships in reality are refitted and upgraded, the effectively limitless capacity to do this in MOOII was totally beyond credibility.

            My ideal would be a more realistic, limited upgrade capability. Constrained to minor upgrades and replacements of smaller systems. For instance new fire control system, additional point defence weapons, that kind of thing... which is what happens with "real" ships (the wet kind, obviously. but the analogy holds I think).

            But the kind of refit where all the weapon systems and engines and, basically, everything except the hull is replaced is what annoys me. Now, obviously this isn't *impossible* in real life either, just prohibitively expensive. You may as well build a whole new ship! In an ideal world (or game!) it would be the same. You *could* do it. But why would you *want* to do it?

            (and on the point of crew experience that you lose with scrapping an old ship - a moot point now anyway. why does the crew have to be inextricably attached to the ship? just separate crew and ship in the game. then you can assign your hardy veteran crews to new ships. it would be nice to train your crews too)

            But anyway, as someone mentioned before, the lack of refitting actually adds a layer of strategic decision, and also adds at tactical level too. And cuts MM. overall, good I think.

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            • #7
              Well, the beta testers don't seem too unhappy about it, remember one of them saying something like: "At first I was sad it wasn't possible, but now I don't know what I'd do WITH it."

              So I'm not terribly worried, besides, everyone is talking about how it will be coming in a patch, so I don't think it's such a big tragedy.
              Last edited by Nightingale; January 24, 2003, 12:10.
              "Beauty is truth, truth beauty, that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." -John Keats, from "Ode on a Grecian Urn"

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              • #8
                everyone is talking about how it will be coming in a patch
                Everyone except the devs... I really wouldn't take it as a forgone conclusion. I hope it is in the patch, tho'.

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                • #9
                  It is, after all, a lot more realistic to have a fleet of ships of varying ages and capabilities. And while, of course, ships in reality are refitted and upgraded, the effectively limitless capacity to do this in MOOII was totally beyond credibility.
                  No its not. The US navy updates its ships. The only tottally out of date vessel we got is the USS Constitution. And we keep her around cause she's a beautiful frigate.

                  That said, while I would like refitting, its certainly not a very big deal to me. I think everyone has thouroughly over reacted.

                  And I believe it was either rantz or chantz who said refiting might make it into the game through a patch. I think its probably a rather high probability. Of course, the game has to be released first.
                  By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may get to be a boss and work twelve hours a day.

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                  • #10
                    Unless they add crew experience in the patch as well, I doubt they'll see the need to add refitting. With unlimited ship design, the experience quandry, and large scrapping bonuses, I don't really see the need either. It'd definitely ease my conscience about the no refit if they lifted the restrictions on fleet size in a patch.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kc7mxo


                      No its not. The US navy updates its ships. The only tottally out of date vessel we got is the USS Constitution.
                      Most navies upgrade their ships. but the fact remains that an older ship upgraded with newer technology, will not be as good as a new ship, built with it from the outset.

                      An example would be the US Midway class carriers... two of which were in service till the early nineties. the Midway herself wasn't actually stricken from the lists untill 97. But she was commisioned in 45! now, even with upgrades, these carriers were not the equals of their successors, hence their eventual retirement. but in MOOII, you could have gone on refitting them and keeping them as cutting edge, first line ships into infinity.

                      Jon...
                      Last edited by Imperator Max; January 24, 2003, 12:40.

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                      • #12
                        Fascinating opinion. I concur...

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                        • #13
                          An example would be the US Midway class carriers... two of which were in service till the early nineties. the Midway herself wasn't actually stricken from the lists untill 97. But she was commisioned in 45! now, even with upgrades, these carriers were not the equals of their successors, hence their eventual retirement. but in MOOII, you could have gone on refitting them and keeping them as cutting edge, first line ships into infinity.
                          Yes, we eventually dump ships. But then you don't scuttle a destroyer just because a new type of cruise missle comes out, do you? No, you stick the ship in port and slap those shiny new missles on. In most situations its cheaper to and more efficient to add new subsystems to a ship than to scuttle the dang thing and build a new multi billion dollar ship.

                          But ships do have a lifetime. The best way to simulate that would be to not allow refits to change armor/structural technology, but only the weapons and other subsystems.
                          By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may get to be a boss and work twelve hours a day.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kc7mxo

                            The best way to simulate that would be to not allow refits to change armor/structural technology, but only the weapons and other subsystems.
                            I agree. That actually sounds like a really good idea to me. Too bad it probably won`t ever be in.

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                            • #15
                              It's not the lack of refit that annoys me so much (since the way the game sounds like it will play the scrap-outdated-ship, build-updated-ship-for-less sounds like it will work the same way) but the fact that its alternative is so much less obvious. I would think of refitting before I thought of keeping things from scrapped ships to use in my new ships (which is how MOO3 seems to handle it.)
                              I do agree that refitting in MOO2 was overpowered though.
                              Chaos, panic and disorder... my work here is done.

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