Review-in-Progress (Open Thread)

[yin26]

Originally posted by MikeH
Right... as promised some first thoughts.

Great!

It's a little bit annoying that you have to try and trade every tech one at a time until you find what the AI player will trade with you, and as Solver said, it's a shame there is no way of telling whether you are getting ripped off or not. The Civ IV beaker comparison on tech trades is fantastic.

Indeed. I tried my hand with a tech auction thread, but I suspect we'll get something more like Civ4 before long.

Despite being a space colonisation game it allows you to suspend disbelief and get immersed. So fun in fact that I am a little gutted that I'm busy the next two evenings then going on holiday for a week and won't get to finish my game until a week thursday.

Welll, a fair first post on the game, I'd say. Looking forward to more.

[Solver]

OK, here's something that might be flawed on the fundamental level of the GalCiv2 AI design. It seems to me now that the GalCiv2 AI's various parts do not "communicate" with each another and instead take their own decisions.

This came to my attention speficially when observing how the AI declares wars, be it on me or other AIs. The war declaration seems to be a product of the diplomatic AI that figures, say, that it hates me enough to declare. It also "consults" the global strategic AI in the process about the military strength, to ensure that it's not suicide, given total militaries, to declare war.

However, the tactical AI seems to be left out of the loop when making this decision. Therefore, the AI will often declare war while it has an almost undefended planet right near my border. Or while its main attacking fleet is still a distance away and needs time to arrive.

For the record, in Civ4, the AI uses all the parts to make these decisions. For example, if the AI wants to declare war, then it was first the diplomatic AI that figured it wants to do so, then the strategic AI that said it has enough power... but the Civ4 AI won't declare war immediately. It starts "war prep". It might do production or civic switches, but more importantly, it puts its forces into position. It puts its army right on the border of the enemy, declares war and moves in on the same turn. That way, the decision to go to war is coordinated on all levels of the AI.

[yin26]

Solver: You nailed it. In every game of GalCiv2 I've played so far, the AI declares war first and figures out how to wage it second. This means in every game I've played, I have decided to run the very small risk of having NO ships on hand. Only once an AI declares war on me do I push my Military slider to 100% and crank out ships like crazy. Yes, I lose some freighters, but those are easily regained and sent in a safe direction. I have not lost a planet yet, either, with this approach.

Perhaps the bigger problem is that while the Drengin are busy supporting the costs of huge fleets, I'm free to optimize my builder routine and, at the flip of a switch, leverage HUGE manufacturing and other econ benefits toward war. Also consider that my ships will be of the latest design without having the added cost of keeping ships updated along several previous turns, like the Drengin have to.

On the positive side, as I think we've all seen, the AI is quite good at countering your ships once it engages you, and the constant back and forth (unless you are at the point where you can create the powerful jack of all trades ships Sirian talked about) is quite enjoyable. Also, in my current game, the Good and Evil blocs really are apparent, and that's a lot of fun. Finally, while I'm critcizing the Drengin routine, I can also say that they are nasty bastards (I play as Good or Neutral) who put up a good --if just tenacious -- fight...and woe will be the day they actually ask questions first and shoot later!

[Solver]

If you lose a planet, you're screwed. It should never get that far. You really should be able to take the enemy army out in space, even with casualties - if not you're rather screwed indeed.

[yin26]

I have lost a planet or two before when I got triple teamed. I realize now that a large part of the dogpile was I didn't have enough influence or high enough econ rating, etc. So far with large influence, econ, pop, etc. (good building routine, in other words) I seem to be getting hit just by the Drengin...of course, I use trade to try to keep the others somewhat happy with me. That said, I haven't played this current game to completion (just quick a Huge map because the micro was killing me).

[Gufnork]

I lose planets all the time. Sometimes protecting them costs too much. It's not a problem though, since I can just send a transport and take it back. The AI doesn't protect it and the planet is usually in the same condition you left it. Sure, my bugs take out most (cargo ships with one laser and a tone of engines) transports before they can get to me, but occasionally they send protected transports.

The thing is that I colonize so much better than the AI that I have that many more planets, so losing one isn't going to do much. Especially since all my planets are balanced.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Solver
If you lose a planet, you're screwed.

I think that's not true. Because conquered planets are immediately productive, if you lose a planet and take it back, the cost to you isn't much at all.

The problem of the AI not being prepared for war is magnified because GC2 makes it so advantageous to prepare for an attack. In Civ4, I frequently do get attacked by AIs that aren't massed for the attack. But it doesn't make a huge difference because, even if they do mass for the attack, they still can't grab my cities on the first turn or two. Unlike the way it works in GC2.

[Solver]

I think I used the wrong wording there. I didn't mean to say that losing a planet is a disaster in itself. Indeed, you can usually retake a planet somewhat quickly. I just wanted to say that if you lose a planet then it's a sign of something going really bad in the war.

In GC2, it's not only advantageous to prepare for an attack, it's just crucial. One thing I've learnt is that minor civilizations are good to wipe out. They have one planet, and a very good one. I just let them build a Capital there, somewhere around that time I am going to have an army, and then I take them - the key moment being to wipe the civ out in one turn.

[Sirian]

Actually... You can be far more evil than that to Minors. You wipe out their full military in one turn, then make peace, getting all their tech, cash and influence. THEN you immediately redeclare and wipe them out. Or you can let them hang around a bit longer, and take what cash and influence they build up in that period, then wipe them out! If they are in the tech race, to where they are still on occasion learning a tech you don't have, it may pay to milk them a bit.

The minors are in the game specifically to be exploited. That is their designed purpose. If you should happen to be behind in tech, by a lot, the minors who appear really late in to the game always start with ALL the techs the tech leader knows at the time they appear, giving you chance after chance to exploit them and catch up. They start with no military, no population. You can extort them rather easily. And if YOU are the tech leader, you need to get a transport to their world ASAP, and certainly before you quit that game session, to prevent them from proliferating your monopoly techs around the majors.

Unfortunately, this mechanism with the minors always works the same. The only thing different is where they are placed. Minors are a lot weaker on big maps (though they weren't always in GC1, where they could expand pretty far in some builds.)


- Sirian

[Solver]

Hadn't really thought of doing that evil stuff to them before. And I had never noticed any minors appearing later... does a planet pop up out of nowhere?

Then again, I don't really like it how the AI can't grasp that about minors. In my experience, the major AIs are far more happy to trade with the minors than to invade them.

[Shadowlord]

Sirian: When you say minors appearing later in the game, are you referring to rebelling planets? (I thought those create or join the I-League, instead of becoming a minor civ)

[yin26]

Quick update:

I repulsed the Drengin attack starting with ZERO ships on defense. As I stated above, I waited to do any ship production (other than constructors and freighters and scouts) until I was declared war on. Sure, the first few turns are clumsy as I ramp up the counter attack, but I've now taken 5 Drengin planets and plan to wipe him out tonight. The Yor are starting to make threats, so maybe the ending isn't yet written on this game, but I think the point is clear:

Had the Drengin built up a sizeable invasion force before delcaring war on me, he could have strolled in and taken my home planet within a few turns. I wouldn't say the game would be over at the point, but it certainly would have put me in a world of hurt. Likely, too, others such as the Yor would have seen the massive drop in my econ and influence...the smell of blood probably would have gotten them to declare war and attack me, too. At *that* point things could have been awfully bad for me.

As for the minors, I use them like an ATM.

[tetley]

If you have very few ships at all, I would even go so far as to put off your military research until declared war on. When you're very weak militarily, the other civs will sell you their military tech. And if you've been researching diplomatic techs instead, you can get a decent price for them, too.

[yin26]

Indeed, that's precisely what I did. I maxed out diplo both from the custom civ perspective and from researching the diplo/influence line. I was able to get ALL my military techs through barter and purchase.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by yin26
Indeed, that's precisely what I did. I maxed out diplo both from the custom civ perspective and from researching the diplo/influence line. I was able to get ALL my military techs through barter and purchase.

Yes, but isn't that kind of silly?

Wait, it gets worse. If you ARE the military leader, then you can go conquesting with your forces and simply STEAL techs during invasions. Thus no real need in that situation to trade for them anyway!


Game balance is not something that can be tacked on at the end. You won't get there by "plugging holes". Having the AI not trade weapons-techs-only with the Civ that is number one (or maybe also number two) in military power is like telling kids to hide under their desks to protect themselves vs a nuclear attack.

Duck and Cover!

You know, I think I'm going to seize on that metaphor. I'm going to start calling design features that have no chance to achieve their objective "Duck and Cover(TM)" features.

This is my first use of the term. We'll see how far it penetrates in the next year or two.


- Sirian