What is the appeal of The Sims?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
[q]You can't speed up the process much, though. If you've got five kids and one adult, it's going to take a long time to get a bigger house.

Maybe not, if you dont suck. I havent played nearly enough to know. Perhaps you have.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Where do you get off being such a douche bag?

[Wiglaf]

It's a legitimate question. Your posts are insulting trolls that clearly misrepresent what you're responding to.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Your posts are insulting trolls

[DrSpike]

Btw the point is not that you cannot make the Sims challenging - you can make counting to a 100 challenging if you try hard enough. It's rather that the bulk of the playerbase want to play in their sandpit rather than face challenges. Otherwise they'd play a proper game.

[Dis]

have to admit, I never tried to artificially make the Sims challenging. Maybe I'll install and try to play again. . My main focus was to meet a hot chick and **** the hell out of her.

But maybe I could try to play as a single parent to 4 kids. That might be interesting.

I'll put it on my to do list, but I'll admit, it's pretty far down my list. I'm lazy about installing games and most likely won't get around to it. In fact, I just removed the Sims 2 from my hard drive as I hadn't played it since I bought it and I need the space on my hard drive for the Civ4 and NWN2 Xp's.

[Blake]

...just because their challenge isn't the same as yours doesn't mean it's not challenge.

Originally posted by Dis
...meet a hot chick and **** the hell out of her.

And that is challenge to Dis

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Btw the point is not that you cannot make the Sims challenging - you can make counting to a 100 challenging if you try hard enough. It's rather that the bulk of the playerbase want to play in their sandpit rather than face challenges. Otherwise they'd play a proper game.

Like I said, I dont have any data on the breakdown. As for proper games though, Im not aware of any Sims type games that are designed more suitably for challenge.

Im also not sure it makes sense to say that someone who is, say, mainly interested in fooling around with architecture and interior design is "Avoiding challenge" If I choose to listen to music, or read the paper while eating a bagel and drinking a Vermont cider, rather than guide they Duchy of Apulia to victory over the muslims of Sicily in CK, does that mean Im avoiding challenge at that particular moment?

Also, I think the challenges available in the Sims, like trying to play as a single parent with 5 kids, are fairly natural to the game, not entirely arbitrary.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dis
have to admit, I never tried to artificially make the Sims challenging. Maybe I'll install and try to play again. . My main focus was to meet a hot chick and **** the hell out of her.

But maybe I could try to play as a single parent to 4 kids. That might be interesting.

I'll put it on my to do list, but I'll admit, it's pretty far down my list. I'm lazy about installing games and most likely won't get around to it. In fact, I just removed the Sims 2 from my hard drive as I hadn't played it since I bought it and I need the space on my hard drive for the Civ4 and NWN2 Xp's.

Nothing wrong with your priorities dis. Right now Im playing CK, not the Sims. Handy, as I dont have to keep taking the Sims disc out of POTM's laptop to put in the desktop that way.

[lord of the mark]

BTW, ive now been defeated and reloaded trying to take Sicily three times running.

I guess thats restored my "gaming soul"

Back to 1066.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Im also not sure it makes sense to say that someone who is, say, mainly interested in fooling around with architecture and interior design is "Avoiding challenge" If I choose to listen to music, or read the paper while eating a bagel and drinking a Vermont cider, rather than guide they Duchy of Apulia to victory over the muslims of Sicily in CK, does that mean Im avoiding challenge at that particular moment?

You are still missing the point. I sometimes do the same (though bagels and cider are not my poison!) when I don't feel like gaming.

The question was "what is the appeal of the Sims?". And the answer is that its sandbox style gameplay appeals to a wider range of person looking for recreational activity - i.e sunday gamers and those who don't usually game at all. The bulk of these people like the fact there is little challenge in the game and they can play the way they want with no risk of failure. Their preferences are different from those who have been gaming for longer who usually like more challenge to motivate their gaming.

I'm really not sure why these quite obviously true points are still meeting with resistance.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by DrSpike

The question was "what is the appeal of the Sims?". And the answer is that its sandbox style gameplay appeals to a wider range of person looking for recreational activity - i.e sunday gamers and those who don't usually game at all. The bulk of these people like the fact there is little challenge in the game and they can play the way they want with no risk of failure. Their preferences are different from those who have been gaming for longer who usually like more challenge to motivate their gaming.

I'm really not sure why these quite obviously true points are still meeting with resistance.

Ok got the GC version for my other half. She is a long-time gamer, mostly reared on consoles, but with some experience of 8-bit gaming(amstrad).

The game is challanging she says. You have a mission based structure on the console version, before you can play the total sandbox version, which is the bit she is looking forward to the most.

But she agrees it's the 'switched off' gameplay that appeals, in the same way games like animal crossing etc are more of a relaxation game, rather than a 'sweaty-palm' action fps.

While i'm unlikely to play the Sims(I might have a go at co-op mode to see it in more detail), I can safely say with my long-time gamer hat on that it's not a 'sh.it' game, or a poor one even. It's different thats all.....and maybe misunderstood?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike


You are still missing the point. I sometimes do the same (though bagels and cider are not my poison!) when I don't feel like gaming.

The question was "what is the appeal of the Sims?". And the answer is that its sandbox style gameplay appeals to a wider range of person looking for recreational activity - i.e sunday gamers and those who don't usually game at all. The bulk of these people like the fact there is little challenge in the game and they can play the way they want with no risk of failure. Their preferences are different from those who have been gaming for longer who usually like more challenge to motivate their gaming.

I'm really not sure why these quite obviously true points are still meeting with resistance.

Cause I dont see wanting to play sandbox as having anything to do with "wanting no risk of failure"

Look, to take a title that draws less emotion, at say Roller Coaster Tycoon. The first was criticized precisely cause it didnt have sandbox mode, and later versions had it. Now Im a gamer whos quite comfortable with losing (as my persistence with CK the last two days is just one more example) but I also saw the need for a sandbox mode. Yeah, it can be fun trying to get a park of a certain size before some arbitrary time limit. But part of whats cool about a game like that is just being able to design coasters. And really, what does wining or losing have to do with designing coasters?

Im willing to bet that most of the sandbox mode people, who want the Sims just to fool around with furnishing a virtual doll house, are quite comfortable with winning and losing games, and have probably played card games, maybe even board games. They MIGHT even play a winning-losing PC or other video game if someone designed one that drew them. They just are happy playing their furnishing TOY without it.

And of course that minority who DO want a challenge (which includes both folks who play other games, and people like POTM who DONT) can also have that.

Its like a rubber ball. Does it have challenge, or not? Well it all depends on what you do with it. Thats the nature of a toy, you can make it the heart of a game, or you can just play with it. Thats Will Wrights insight.

[lord of the mark]

"The bulk of these people like the fact there is little challenge in the game "

theres also a question of what we mean by challenge.

With my lack of a knack for color, for design, etc, I make ugly rooms in the Sims. Some folks can make beautiful rooms. Thats a challenge, to me. Its just one that a PC cant (yet) judge, and so cant reasonably be assigned a win or loss value. Should someone who aspires to a beautiful or creative house, be considered less interested in challenge than someone who wants to score a lot of points?

Two people take a rubber ball. One plays a game, trying to throw it as far as possible, and measures the distance against some standard, and calls each throw a win or a loss. The other does tricks with the ball, and tries to make more elaborate tricks. No objective measures, no wins, no losses. But less of a challenge?

I think we're getting to McNamara fallacy time.

[Wiglaf]

Two people take a rubber ball. One plays a game, trying to throw it as far as possible, and measures the distance against some standard, and calls each throw a win or a loss. The other does tricks with the ball, and tries to make more elaborate tricks. No objective measures, no wins, no losses. But less of a challenge?

The Sims does not allow you to be half as creative as that rubber ball. With a rubber ball you can play any number of games. With The Sims all you can do is tell fake computer people to crap, eat, and do a series of other pre-determined actions.

I can invent something new with the ball. With the Sims, I can only do what the designers have in mind.

Once you realize that the game allows zero creativity, and also zero challenge, you realize it sucks and isn't a game at all. It's a sad little dollhouse for people who should be thrown off a bridge.