RIP Total War ???

[Kassiopeia]

Hmm, interesting. Now if only I had the time to play RTW (well, RTR) between all the other games and stuff. :|

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Trajanus
That's not very realistic. In fact elephants were never that powerful. They were deployed to scare enemy cavalry mainly, and as most Roman units very quite mobile they could easily let the elephants charge passed their ranks without any harm!

This isn't really the case. In fact, the mod website explains the elephants:

Actually, there were "immortal" elephants led by the graecian armies in southern italia- they were the primary reason Pyrhus managed to defeat the Romans at Heraclea. The romans also thought them to be immortal (or at least unstoppable) and although having heard about elephants from the hellenic campaigns in the east- this was the first time they encountered them. Only at Asculum did the Romans have the first bits of success at repelling elephants (using ox-drawn chariots with blades attached to them and flaming pots) and they did not MASTER elephant counter-combat until zama.

The African war elephants (Which Greece/Carthage and Egypt would be using) for example were smaller then their indo-asian equivalents, had a square shaped skull, and were unable to support a firing tower upon their backs, only a rider and perhaps an archer or two were supported. The ancients rarely used the BUSH elephant which was tempramental, and instead used the smaller forest elephant type. Only 6-8 feet in height, these are the elephants which made up the mainstray of Hannibal's forces and were found at the base of the Atlas mountains. The interpretation of Hannibal with giant elephants was flawed- he is not noted as having asian war elephants amongst his forces, although he probably had a few (at least one, which was his personal mount before he crossed over into the alps).

The asian elephants on the other hand (Which the greece/parthians/seleucids/pontus/scythians etc would be using) were larger and had a conical shaped skull, they could be fully armored (and often were) in scale, banded, leather or padded armor. They supported firing towers and a rider. They were massive, some as tall as 15 or 16 feet and could shatter lines apart. They were distinctive from their African brothers in size, usage, apperance and combat readiness.

[child of Thor]

Interesting facts Boris I never knew of a specialised asian war elephant - they sound like huge tanks!!

[Traianvs]

Yeah Boris, at first they were feared as nobody had ever seen anything like it, which is understandable. But as soon as the novelty had worn off, they didn't have much actual fighting importance. They could serve a purpose in disrupting enemy lines, but then again you would need to place your elephants in between the enemy rank and your own. Chances are the elephants are pushed back and wreak havoc in your own ranks.
One of the simpler tactics of disposing of elephants was throwing spiked objects of which I don't know the English term () in front of them so their feet would be wrecked, causing enormous pain and making them go berzerk or fall down.

Elephants were debastating for an unprepared enemy sure, but really,... It was much like scythed chariots. They were simply outmanoeuvred by the Romans. I'd like to know about a few Roman battles that were lost (or nearly) because of enemy elephants, because I don't know any personally!

And btw: I'd be surprised to see Parthian, Scythian,... elephants...
In fact they used cavalry rather than elephants.


Better research is needed in my humble opinion. But still it has some good improvements, that's not the point

[Grumbold]

Elephants are like any other weapon. Once you know what works and what doesn't a good commander can neutralise them. The Romans initial disadvantage was that their normal mainstay - the legionaries - were not well equipped to deal with them and that untrained cavalry horses are terrified of them (like camels.) Once prepared and equipped, they fared much better.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Trajanus
I'd like to know about a few Roman battles that were lost (or nearly) because of enemy elephants, because I don't know any personally!

Heraclea, it mentioned it in the article. Elephants were the primary reason the Romans lost. Phyrrus also used them to break the Roman lines at Asculum. Considering his methods, elephants were certainly the deciding factor in these battles.

The point of the game mechanic is that until a certain point, Romans were not able to deal with elephants very effectively. In order to preserve the "realism" of the historical situation, they found it necessary to make the elephants very tough until a certain point in the game.

And btw: I'd be surprised to see Parthian, Scythian,... elephants...

Why? They did. Usage of elephants in war spread around the world. The Seluecids used elephants all the time, so there's no reason to think the Parthians wouldn't.

http://nabataea.net/elephants.html

"As late as the Roman Empire all known war elephants seem to come from India, via the Parthian / Sassinid Empire."

[Dry]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The point of the game mechanic is that until a certain point, Romans were not able to deal with elephants very effectively. In order to preserve the "realism" of the historical situation, they found it necessary to make the elephants very tough until a certain point in the game.

This is something I do not fully understand.
On one hand people complain - and developers seem to confirm - about "Immortal' elephants, but the other hand, I killed 3 of them (on 36) at the first meet and the 33 others at the second.
This was my first Realism v5.4.1 game - I played a lot v5.1 - as roman. Emperor/Emperor, of course.
Are they really supposed to be immortal or just hard to kill?

And btw, it wasn't that hard. It just needed some strategic skill to bring them on the right ground: mountains.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Trajanus
I haven't played much yet of course, but the Roman legions are really quite weak now compared to say greek phalanx-type units. That's okay, but you should have given the roman units an other advantage such as more flexible movement or something, because after all that's what they were good at.

uh?
Legions ARE better than phallanxes in movements... well, at least if the greeks make the mistake to choose phallanx formation.

[SpencerH]

To get back on topic since it hasnt been mentioned here. RTW has now been finally 'done in' by the load/seige bug. For those without the concentration to find the threads at totalwar.org (dont go to .com they've been eliminating all threads that mention it) the bug is a game ender for those that play a few turns then save. On every restart the game 'forgets' what it was doing and the AI moves its troops back to its own land. As a result all seiges are ended and there is little to no AI expansion if you play intermittantly. In addition, any AI civ will become a protectorate (if asked) in that turn. There's a thread at the .com (if it's still there) about the exploit. Someone conquered every civ with 5 battles and diplomats using it. CA refer to the bug as a 'feature'.

[child of Thor]

Yikes! thats a pretty nasty 'feature'. Still it should be patchable?(well i'm hoping this will be sorted by the time i get to play RTW).

Maybe i'll wait for the xbox port

[DrSpike]

That really sucks. Laughable that they are hiding it at totalwar.com too.

[Kassiopeia]

Flamboyant fanboyism at its worst. A damn shame. I hope there'll be a fan patch to sort it out, because it definitely sounds like a game breaker. I was wondering why the AI was always so impotent.

[child of Thor]

there's always MTW(+mods)?

I'm having quite a good campaign at the momment as the English(on hard setting). Keep getting excommunicated by the pope, but it keeps me on my toes

I dont think TW will die, even with this latest big bug and its move into a possible different publisher/platform sphere. The basic game is too good an idea, too well enjoyed by many people imho.

[Leonidas]

The developers (CA) have stated that they will NOT be patching the load/save bug issue in RTW.

They are laughingly calling it a "pre-designed feature". lol

This has caused quite a furor over that the .org.

This, along with many other bugs, have essentially pounded the nail into this game.

If you must have RTW, wait until it's in the bargain bin... but be warned that saving and reloading a game will essentially screw with the AI.

In the meantime return to MTW and STW and all their mods...

Cheers!

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Leonidas
They are laughingly calling it a "pre-designed feature".

Least Firaxis admit their bugs, and then don't fix them.