Yet another bleeding BG thread *sigh*

[Dis]

Originally posted by Jamski
Heh, too cheap to pay for raise dead, but rich enough to shell out 20% extra for only having an 18 rep

I have to admit to never casting (or even memorising) ressurection spells. Its such a pain when the dead character has to pick up all their stuff from the floor. Better to not let anyone die, eh ?

-Jam

18 rep?

I had my rep down to 5 in my current BG game. You should have seen the prices for full plate armourn.

[Dis]

Originally posted by duke o' york
I have no idea what you're talking about, but BGII sounds cool! I can't wait to do all the odd things that you're all on about.
I get the impression that some of you are referring to Viconia as an early character in BGI. Have I got the wrong end of the wrong stick here? Have I missed her completely so far, or have I not yet reached her yet?

she's in a village/are in the north east. you may run accross her when you go up to the bandits.

[Dis]

and another reason I like pure class clerics.

They can get skeleton warriors with their summon undead quicker. It takes mages quite a while to get up to level 15, but clerics can do it fast. and skeleton warriors are great summons in BG1 and 2.

[Jamski]

@J Bytheway : Can you send me your enemy AI scripts, or post them here? I'd love to have a look. If they are indeed better than the cheating cheese of the Tactics improved mage scripts (illegal sequencers OnSpawn? Why how elegant!) then I'll give them a bash.

-Jam

[Qilue]

I prefered Anomen (who I truly despise) over Viconia for his turn undead ability. Viconia cannot destroy undead, only temporarily control them and you end up having to fight them anyway.

When Anomen's level (as cleric) is around level 17, undead cease to be any kind of problem. His turn Undead will even bypass a lich's spell protections.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Jamski
@J Bytheway : Can you send me your enemy AI scripts, or post them here? I'd love to have a look. If they are indeed better than the cheating cheese of the Tactics improved mage scripts (illegal sequencers OnSpawn? Why how elegant!) then I'll give them a bash.

Well, the way I make them better is to use the detectable spells (there's a long story behind the detectable spells, but the short of it is that I put together the most recent version and it allows for much better AI).

I need to put together a new distribution of the detectable spells with my most recent changes, and I'll post it here when I do (probably this evening some time). It includes, as an example, the "Improved Mages" script which fulfills basically the same role as the tactics bit that does the same thing. I do supply free buffs upon spawning, but only fairly mild ones (actually pretty much the same ones that tactics gives...), and there are no illegal contingencies or triggers besides that. There are other cheats in the tactics script which I don't use. Mostly the script is just much cleverer - it virtually never casts a spell which has no effect on its target at all. I also cut out the spell liches got for recalling the party and removing their prot undead, but even *with* prot undead on all my party, one of the liches managed to survive for about 9-12 rounds against them (although he didn't hurt any of them).

Anyway, if you're interested in the scripting methods for their own sake, I've attached another example - the script that was running the people I was testing the SuperScript against. jbcounci.pbf is the source for my own custom compiler, and jbcounci.baf is the source for the normal ToB compiler. You can't actually compile either without the detectable spells, but it demonstrates the concept. This one script runs 5 different charachters (of different classes) and all their summons so it's a little convoluted, but it should be fairly simple to figure out roughly what's going on (at least if you look at the .pbf version, rather than the .baf version, since the latter has no comments). This is the script which I based the general mages script on (this one performs rather better because I was able to make sensible spell choices for the people running it).

The references the the 'Council' are just because I was idly thinking about putting this together into a complete mod (in the same vein as The Ritual for tactics, etc.).

To give you an idea of the differences, compare the conditions on the triggers for casting Magic Missile:

In original BG2 scripts it looks something like this:

IF
    HaveSpell(WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        Spell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
END

In the tactics improved mages it's:

IF
    GlobalTimerExpired("Cast","LOCALS")
    HaveSpell(WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
    !HasItemEquiped("CLCK26",LastSeenBy(Myself)) // Cloak of Mirroring
    !RandomNum(20,0)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        SetGlobalTimer("Cast","LOCALS",6)
        Spell(LastSeenBy(Myself),WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
END

In my mages script:

IF
	HaveSpell(WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
	OR(2)
		!GlobalTimerNotExpired("JB_Action", "LOCALS")
		CheckStatGT(Myself, 0, AURACLEANSING)
	!StateCheck(LastSeenBy(Myself), STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, SANCTUARY)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, MINORGLOBE)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, WIZARD_SPELL_TURNING)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, SPELL_DEFLECTION)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, WIZARD_SPELL_TRAP)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, WIZARD_OTILUKES_RESISLIENT_SPHERE)
	!StateCheck(LastSeenBy(Myself), STATE_INVISIBLE)
	CheckStatLT(LastSeenBy(Myself), 50, RESISTMAGIC)
	CheckStatLT(LastSeenBy(Myself), 51, MAGICDAMAGERESISTANCE)
	CheckStatLT(Myself, 60, SPELLFAILUREMAGE)
	!HasItemEquiped("CLCK26", LastSeenBy(Myself))
	!CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 6, WIZARD_SPELL_IMMUNITY)
	CheckStat(LastSeenBy(Myself), 0, WIZARD_SHIELD)
	Global("JB_ImprisonmentThisTimeStop", "LOCALS", 0)
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		SetGlobalTimer("JB_Action", "LOCALS", 6)
		Spell(LastSeenBy(Myself), WIZARD_MAGIC_MISSILE)
END

Most of the additional checks are made possible by the detectable spells.

Anyway, I'll try to cut myself off because I have a tendancy to go on and on about my own creations, especially when it provides an excuse to stop working .

[Jamski]

Cool I'll have a poke around after tea. I was thinking of doing something to check fire resistance before casting fire spells, breath attacks etc, but the number of items to look for put me off (and I am a lazy git) unless you think :

CheckStat(LastSeenBy(oMonster), 101, RESISTFIRE)

would make sure that the character wouldn't actually be healed by it?

Hmmm...

I'm not sure I want the mages too smart though, I'd like to have a chance. The human player can beat a level 35 mage with a level 12 party as it is, but if the mage is smartened, the human should be without a chance...

-Jam

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Jamski
Cool I'll have a poke around after tea. I was thinking of doing something to check fire resistance before casting fire spells, breath attacks etc, but the number of items to look for put me off (and I am a lazy git)

As to laziness, as you can see from my sources, my custom compiler lets me use macros and other such things which simplify the script-writing process considerably .

unless you think :

CheckStat(LastSeenBy(oMonster), 101, RESISTFIRE)

would make sure that the character wouldn't actually be healed by it?

Well,
CheckStatLT(LastSeenBy(oMonster), 101, RESISTFIRE)
would work, but you'd at least want to reduce 101 to 100 since at 100 no damage or healing will be done, so it's not worth it (Well, actually you still get spell disruption, so it might be worthwhile against spellcasters, but generally you might as well use another spell which will do a different type of damage to actually hurt the target and also desrupt their casting).

Hmmm...

I'm not sure I want the mages too smart though, I'd like to have a chance. The human player can beat a level 35 mage with a level 12 party as it is, but if the mage is smartened, the human should be without a chance...

Well, the party I was using for my tests was the protagonist (lvl 36 Cleric), Solaufein (lvl 21/19), Sarevok (lvl 27), Valygar (lvl 29), Kelsey (lvl 26) and Imoen (lvl 7/24). They were massacred by each of a level 20/28 Vampire Mage/Thief, a level 31 Lich Sorcerer and a level 31 Illithid Enchanter, but defeated the level 22/23 human Cleric/Mage, all running that script I attached above.

With tactical play I can defeat these opponents (except maybe the Illithid - he's seriously annoying... You can be on the receiving end of Time Stop/Intelligence Drain cheese) with many casualties, and with cheesy play I can win more easily (The best method I've found being nested Time Stops to exhaust their Prot Magic Weapons and Shapechange for intelligence drain - something which will work against every enemy in the entire game except those immune to Time Stop, and those who you can't kill that way because it breaks the plotline, like Abazigal).

I don't think a level 35 mage would have any difficulty against a level 12 party unless they used the most excessive of cheese. Given the necessary exits, someone playing solo could use the exploit of escaping to another map every time a spell is cast to cancel it, but that's quite difficult to achieve (I know, because I've done it), especially if you're vulnerable to 1-segment cast, instant effect spells like Power Word: Stun/Kill...

Even with the party under Protection from Undead, the Lich sorcerer could still summon up Dark Planetars (being the AI, he has no one-at-a-time limit). I doubt that's what the script would currently make him do, but I've seen stranger emergent behaviour from it, so I don't know. It's certainly a better (meaning, more realistic and less cheesy) counter-tactic to the use of such scrolls than the one the tactics improved mages use.

My initial assumption, based on experience with the normal game, would be that it would take a bunch of these high-level mages to threaten the party at this stage of ToB, but when I'd written them they turned out to be much meaner than I had expected...

[J Bytheway]

Here's a copy of the detectable spells, and the mages script example. It's not a very user-friendly install at the moment (since it's aimed at script developers, rather than end-users). One of these days I must get around to WeiDUing it (the Mages example is already WeiDUed).

Be sure to uninstall the tactics improved mages before installing these ones, or it will become most confused...

[Jamski]

Nice. I'm having a look now.

Some kind of trigger would be good on the lines of if the mob takes any damage, it actively seeks out the PC....

Ummm... you can force it with an OnDamaged script to Get the attacker and force attack them, even if they are off screen... but that's making the AI cheat to compete. If only there was a way to make them run about at random if they took damage from off screen...

I mean, your script is good, but I don't see what's stopping my favorite cheese of mass Cloudkills cast from offscreen...

Anyway I don't want to critisise it untill I've tried it in action, that would be unfair.



-Jam

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Jamski
Some kind of trigger would be good on the lines of if the mob takes any damage, it actively seeks out the PC....

Ummm... you can force it with an OnDamaged script to Get the attacker and force attack them, even if they are off screen... but that's making the AI cheat to compete. If only there was a way to make them run about at random if they took damage from off screen...

They already should do exactly that . I haven't tested that exactly, but when I attack liches under Protection from Undead they run around at random, which is more or less the same thing.

I mean, your script is good, but I don't see what's stopping my favorite cheese of mass Cloudkills cast from offscreen...

Randomwalking is about the best you can do here without making the AI cheat quite badly with something like a MoveToObject(Player1), but it's still pretty hopeless except in a wide open area, because the target is unlikely to escape the Cloudkill, let alone find the party...

Anyway I don't want to critisise it untill I've tried it in action, that would be unfair.

Thanks.

If you want the details, then in the mages script this trigger activates them upon damage:

IF
  OR {
    Detect([GOODCUTOFF])
    TookDamage()
    AttackedBy([GOODCUTOFF.0.0.0.0.SUMMONED],DEFAULT)
    AttackedBy([PC],DEFAULT)
    AttackedBy([FAMILIAR],DEFAULT)
    AttackedBy([ALLY],DEFAULT)
    AttackedBy([CONTROLLED],DEFAULT)
    AttackedBy([CHARMED],DEFAULT)
    SpellCastOnMe([GOODCUTOFF.0.0.0.0.SUMMONED],0)
    SpellCastOnMe([PC],0)
    SpellCastOnMe([FAMILIAR],0)
    SpellCastOnMe([ALLY],0)
    SpellCastOnMe([CONTROLLED],0)
    SpellCastOnMe([CHARMED],0)
  }
  Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
  Global("JB_Active", "LOCALS", 0)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobal("JB_Active", "LOCALS", 1)
    Continue()
END

and then if noone is in sight the script will fall first to this trigger:

IF
  !See([GOODCUTOFF])
  GlobalTimerNotExpired("JB_SeenPartyRecently", "LOCALS")
  !Range(Player1, 18)
  !Range(Player2, 18)
  !Range(Player3, 18)
  !Range(Player4, 18)
  !Range(Player5, 18)
  !Range(Player6, 18)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player1)
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player2)
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player3)
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player4)
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player5)
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(Player6)
END

Which will home in on the party provided the creature running the script has seen any party member recently (I'm assuming they watched which way they went).

Otherwise, it just gets:

IF
  !See([GOODCUTOFF])
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    RandomWalk()
END

Which is the randomwalking you want .

[Sparrowhawk]

Wow! I read through the last entire thread and this one too (just in short time periods though) and it took me about a week . Most of the talk is over my head, as I have yet to play the game .

However, I now have Baldur's Gate II "The Collection" which includes "Shadows of Amn" and "Throne of Bhaal". I am not ready to install it yet though, as from all I read I would like to play Baldur's Gate I first (and can't find it in any of the second hand stores I have checked).

My question (never mind character classes and races and everything else that I will worry about later) is what do I need to be able to play? (I bought BGII second hand and it came with 6 disks but no documentation except for the box). I have read about tutu and various patches, and it seems that the order that I install them is significant, and I also read about Icewind Dale which I am a fan of the novels, but what do I still need, (and which do I have to buy and what to download).

So what I am looking for is:
- any thoughts on how I would go about getting Baldur's Gate I (and for any mods reading this, I want to pay for it)
- what do I need for documentation (I was hoping for at least a manual with the game, but assume I can download the same? Unlike Duke of York, I am even willing to print it )
- what do I need for patches or updates? (Tutu is the only one I know for sure, but no idea where to begin to look for this)
- once I have all I need, what order do I install it?

/me hoping for some Baldur's Gate help!! which will be greatly appreciated

[Dis]

I got my current copy of BG1 (I had 2 of the original versions- and in both the CD's quit working. I think there may have been a flaw when manufacturing the original CD's) from Amazon.com. It was actually a private seller though. The version I got was called the Orginal Saga which includes the expansion. It's a 3 CD set. I think these CD's are of better quality than the originals. At least I hope.

So you can go to amazon.com type in Baldur's Gate and see what comes up. You can also try ebay.

I still see this game in stores like Electronics Boutique (though that was the original 6 CD set which I had problems with).

BG2 does have a pdf manual included with it (at least in my version). So you just need an acrobat reader to read it.

The Tutu mod only applies to BG1 (although you need BG2 installed to use it). It basically updates the BG1 engine to the BG2 engine (technically they are the same engine, but BG2 is superior). But that isn't necesary. I'm playing BG1 without any mods except for a fix pack (and that isn't necessary as well). If you buy the original saga you don't need any patches as well. You can just install and start playing. I was going to do an ease of use mod, but that looked too cheesy.

As for the order, I'm not sure. but the easy way to do it is go to the Bioware.com forums (they also used to be on the interplay.com forums- but those forums are closed). Check the BG1 and BG2 general sections. They have a sticky thread displaying all (or most) of the major known mods, and the order in which to install them.

[Jamski]

Basically for BG1, just the patch is required. If you like you can use the Ease of Use mod on top of that. I wouldn't add anything else. As for finding the programm, try ebay, amazon, secondhand shops, flea markets... Interplay (I think) recently losts the rights to continue to sell it.

Next we have Icewind Dale. This is a stand-alone game in the same world, same engine, same rules. It has no link with BG apart from the gameplay mechanics.

Ok, then BG2+ToB. Patch and then use the Baldurdash fixpack. This isn't really optional. Then use any non-WeiDU (an installer program) mods, then any WeiDU mods (All WeiDU mods are compatable)

I hope that helps.

Sparrowhawk, if you're really bored there was another thread before the last one too...

-Jam

[Dis]

I never used the fix pack with BG2 until I recently learned about it . You can beat the game without it.

Yeah the fate of Interplay is iffy. I'm really glad I picked up another copy of Baldur's Gate when I did.

Icewind Dale 1 is an interesting game. Not much on character development or NPC interaction. Very combat orientated. But it is fun.

A lot of people didn't like IWD2 but that game is alright. A few areas are annoying. It's not a great implementation of 3rd edition AD&D rules, but not too bad considering they used the same engine as Baldur's Gate.

But I'd start off with Baldur's Gate. They could become more scarce, so nows the time to get it if you intend on eventually playing them.