2nd Anniversary of Source Code Release

[Maquiladora]

Its been almost (28th) 2 years now since the source was released (doesnt seem that long) so i thought we could do with a thread to help us all reflect on whats been done, where we are now and where we're going. I say "we", of course i just play the game and have a lot of unfinished translation.

We all know the release of civ4 is a week or two away so this is doubly a good time to refresh ourselves, and perhaps even rethink the goals of the project (and no I dont mean copying features from civ4).

Im sure we'll all be trying civ4 at least once though and maybe some of us will become addicted, but i know as long as im on Apolyton this will always be the first place i come.

I hope even with the small amount of people left here, we can keep working on the project and see it through until the end*.

*whenever that is

The purpose of this project is for the CtP2 community on Apolyton to try and get the source code running (on different platforms), to understand and document it and to use it to make improvements to the game. So far the focus has been be on bug fixes and minor improvements, but as time progresses it will hopefully be possible to make more ambitious changes. Where the project will end is impossible to say at this point, but one (rather ambitious) view that some people have is that a full-fledged fan-made sequel to CtP2 will come out of this.

Thats quite an old quote from the FAQ.

From my point of view i wish we had a more concrete plan for the project as a whole, it would help everyone to focus on what needs to be done, rather than now where we seem to be stumbling along fixing, adding and testing things all over the place with no end, where a job has been done, translation for example, it has to be visited again when something new is added, this seems inefficient to me.

I know people work on things they want to and i dont want to tell people what to do at all, but theres no plan here.

What are peoples thoughts on this, the project so far, and what should the project ultimately look like?

[Ekmek]

first, I think there should be some announcement and a news item.

As far as direction, I think there is some congratulations in order because so far we have surpassed the goal stated in that old quote.

and I think most bugs have been fixed.

As for future direction I think these are possibilities:

* Debug MP (but few play MP)

* the Linux group will continue working I'm sure

* Integrate features from other civ players as OPTIONS for modders. I've kind of been doing this with my code attempts. I figure if we add features that we like in other Civ games and make them something you can add it could extend the life of the game.

* Interface improvement. a lot of discussion on that recently

* Diplomacy improvement. I think this is the one area that has been lightly touched but needs more effort. I'm still willing to do the art once we get an idea of what we need (I know Martin made a decent proposal)

With that I hope there is a revival at building a coding team of some sorts because its kind of fallen to hobby coding where people do what the feel like since the bugs were fixed and most 1.1 and apolyton patch have been implemented. So I hope there is some discussion and agreement as to where to go next. especially to take advantage of christmas time when most of us have time off.

Finally, we are really running short on coders. (maq maybe Martin will help you with a source code attempt thread?)

Civ4 releasing the modability of Python and some of the code was surely a moveto suck people away from CtP2. I have to say Civ4 is the first Civ game I wont rush out to buy (well I did miss buying Ctp1 but I was deployed). I probably won't get sucked over to Civ4 anytime soon because the graphics looks to hard to mod and I barely understand C++ so I doubt I'll get into Python.

But I've seen Peter Triggs, Dale, Locutus and other early Ctp2 coders already go to Civ4. I can only hope that we don't lose anymore people and even pray that Civ4 fails to meet their expectations and they come back!

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
* the Linux group will continue working I'm sure

I am sure as well, this give the game another platform that isn't available to Civ4 I think.

Originally posted by E
With that I hope there is a revival at building a coding team of some sorts because its kind of fallen to hobby coding where people do what the feel like since the bugs were fixed and most 1.1 and apolyton patch have been implemented. So I hope there is some discussion and agreement as to where to go next. especially to take advantage of christmas time when most of us have time off.

It will be always some kind of hobby coding, remember no one here is paid. But I have no idea how we could attract new coders. There is no hype right now, maybe we should do a release and make sure that it is distributed by some game magazines.

Originally posted by E
Finally, we are really running short on coders. (maq maybe Martin will help you with a source code attempt thread?)

Of course Maq has to open his own thread and has to push it forward, I can give only tips and of course I don't make it too easy.

Originally posted by E
Civ4 releasing the modability of Python and some of the code was surely a moveto suck people away from CtP2. I have to say Civ4 is the first Civ game I wont rush out to buy (well I did miss buying Ctp1 but I was deployed). I probably won't get sucked over to Civ4 anytime soon because the graphics looks to hard to mod and I barely understand C++ so I doubt I'll get into Python.

Probably it is also a reaction of Firaxis, that they got burned, because of the lack of moddability.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Originally posted by E
Civ4 releasing the modability of Python and some of the code was surely a moveto suck people away from CtP2.

That's not the right way to put it. Firaxis utterly screwed up Civ3 and are trying to make amends with the modding community by going above and beyond the call of duty in Civ4. They want Civ4 to be the best Civ game ever (surely noone will think that's a bad ambition to have...), and for that to succeed it must be the most moddable Civ game as well. As CtP2 modders we can only applaud this: aren't we here because we love both modding and CtP2? In that case, isn't a new game being released that is mod-friendly and has many CtP2-esque features (city limit-like maintenance system, more advanced combat, macromanagement, non-infinite railroads, etc) a good thing? If anything we should be flattered that Firaxis learning lessons from our favourite game, even imitating it in some aspects.

I can only hope that we don't lose anymore people and even pray that Civ4 fails to meet their expectations and they come back!

The Civ series is not an enemy of the CtP series, especially not considering that the CtP series is dead (as in, there will never be a commercial CtP3). It is in the best interest of everyone who loves TBS that Civ4 is a success or it could mean the death of the genre. Also, even with the mods and the source code, CtP2 is aging. Do you still want be playing a game from 2000 in 2008 and beyond? Everyone will have to answer that question for himself, but I think many people (certainly yours truly) will answer that with "only if there is no alternative". Civ4 offers much of what CtP2 has plus many other new, better, more interesting features. Mod in the stuff that we miss from CtP2 (stacked combat, PW) and Civ4 == CtP3!

Let's take a step back from the anti-Firaxis complex that many of us have (if I can admit it, so can you ) and reflect honestly on the current state of affairs.

After 2 years, what has the source code brought us? A lot has been accomplished, that's for sure, I don't need to explain to you guys what exactly. But 2 years ago everyone was cheering that we would now be able to make our own CtP3. Well, that didn't really work out, did it? The closest thing to it is AoM, but that doesn't even use the source code (yet). We haven't even been able to put out a single 'official' patch (although the latest playtest is of course pretty much the equivalent). I think many of us would like to see a real CtP3 but personally I think the CtP2 source code isn't suited as basis for it: it would take at least 5 more years to develop (and that's a very conservative estimate) and then you would be stuck with a game engine that's 12 years old! It would be competing with Civ5, Spartan 4, EU4, Age of Empires 6... which would all probably have graphics and gameplay features we can't even dream of today. How many people would still be interested in a CtP2-based game by then? At most a dozen, maybe two?

So what's the alternative? Civ4 is the only new game out there that even remotely resembles CtP2. Civ4 will have many CtP2-like features, it will be just as moddable, if not more so, it has a much newer game engine, a much larger community, a developer that's dedicated to providing post-release support and most importantly, the source code of most of the game will be released in January. There is already a project underway to make a SMAC clone/sequel using the Civ4 engine (here) and there's talk of doing the same with Colonization and Civ2. Maybe we should consider the option of moving this project over to Civ4? Develop a true CtP3 based on the Civ4 engine, something which combines the best concepts of CtP2 and Civ4, some concepts that we discussed in this forum over the past 2 years (such as a more detailed population model, three-way diplomacy, vasal states, limited wonders and so many other good ideas that I'm undoubtedly forgetting) and of course some new ideas that we could discuss in the months to come. With all the advantages that Civ4 offers over CtP2, that could proof to be a much more rewarding project than continuing to work on CtP2 and would probably appeal to a much larger audience (making it easier to attract new coders as well).

Of course, I'm not saying that the work that has been done on the CtP2 source code in the past 2 years should just be abandoned, at the very least the things that are currently under development should be wrapped up and a proper official release of the Apolyton Edition should be made to close off this unique and wonderful chapter in gaming history. The source code of Civ4 won't be out until January, so there is time to do just that (and it's not necessary to jump into this project right away when it does come out, it might even be beneficial to wait a little and see what others do with it). And of course, there will always be space on Apolyton for the CtP2 source code so that anyone who wants to continue to work on it can do just that. But in the long run I personally believe it would be in the best interest of the CtP 'franchise' to move on to a newer engine and for us to continue to improve on it from there.

[Maquiladora]

Well at least we got some replies now

I wrote this reply to E's post before Martins and Locutus' replies, waiting for a couple more replies at the time...

As for future direction I think these are possibilities:

...

* Integrate features from other civ players as OPTIONS for modders. I've kind of been doing this with my code attempts. I figure if we add features that we like in other Civ games and make them something you can add it could extend the life of the game.

I wonder about this though, there are hardly any people left here, let alone players AND modders to create these future mods. If a mod has any chance of reaching enough players to be worth it, it has to go outside Apolyton, and into many other forums.

Look at Ages of Man, Stan advertised it a lot, a website, a forum, ive seen posts and discussion in other general gaming forums about AoM too, but thats whats required to reach any kind of audience now. Some people (outside Apolyton) also misunderstood it to be a brand new game, which brought it more players.

If anyone creates a mod for CtP2 in the future theyll have to do all this, which IMO isnt worth it now. At the time AoM was released there was a gap to fill, civ4 was months away, civ3 was lacking with basically cosmetic mods and scenarios, people were interested in other things. If anyone wants to create a mod now, who is going to create a mod for CtP2 rather than civ4? You have a huge potential audience with civ4, excellent modding capabilities, its just not gonna happen unfortunately. This is where i think the source code project needs to change.

The project should create a new game, perhaps building on another mod. Basically everything that can be done now (within reason) should be used in the Apolyton Edition *Martin and Tamerlin throw rotten fruit at me*

With that I hope there is a revival at building a coding team of some sorts because its kind of fallen to hobby coding where people do what the feel like since the bugs were fixed and most 1.1 and apolyton patch have been implemented. So I hope there is some discussion and agreement as to where to go next. especially to take advantage of christmas time when most of us have time off.

Well i hope we can all agree to a solid plan for the project by the end of this thread. Since theres so few people here its even more important that we have a final plan and some direction as soon as possible.

Finally, we are really running short on coders. (maq maybe Martin will help you with a source code attempt thread?)

I had considered it reading your thread but i decided its something totally beyond me to produce anything constructive in the next 1000 years, id be starting completely from scratch and i certainly dont pick things up quickly and to be frank would only end taking up Martins time.

Originally posted by Locutus

Id definitely like to see an Apolyton Edition with a great AI at least, if this means integrating a major mod into the project to get a head start then so be it. As i said above, therell be hardly anyone left playing CtP2, let alone modding it, so i dont see the point anymore in making an AE that only increases the modding capabilities. Go out with a bang as they say.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Locutus

Edit:
.....CtP2 is aging. Do you still want be playing a game from 2000 in 2008 and beyond?

i just liked the CTP games from the start, and expect they will continue to get a dust off evey now and then, good old games are like a fine wine i often find

And i agree with your points over the old CTP vs Civ split. I was first(+still am) a massive Civ fan, i like games that give you that sense of discovery and has a decent level of depth to the gameplay. I never had a problem with CTP being diferent from Civ, i learnt to enjoy those differences(even the lame AI that allowed you time to be a builder ) and the CTP games will in my mind remain as fondly remembered as the Civ games(well 1-2 anyway).

So lets see and hope Civ4 IS the tbs we've all been waiting for for all these years, i suppose we will always have the other games and their Mods just in case something terrible happens. And who knows what the CTP2 source code project and Mods will acheive in the future

I also think in its way, having the source code project(thanks to all involved in allowing it to happen ) around is a great place for future programmers to come and have a look - you want to see whats involved in making a AAA pc game? then this is a great place to start i would imagine

[rsewar2]

Originally posted by Maquiladora

Id definitely like to see an Apolyton Edition with a great AI at least, if this means integrating a major mod into the project to get a head start then so be it. As i said above, therell be hardly anyone left playing CtP2, let alone modding it, so i dont see the point anymore in making an AE that only increases the modding capabilities. Go out with a bang as they say.

definitely agree with this. Finish up AE1.0 and make call to power 2 the best it can be - not just the source code, but also mods to get the ai as good as it can be and make the ai as open to diplomacy as possible (and why not other mods, such as visible wonders, city sprawl etc?). Make sure that when people dust of their copy of ctp2 for a game and go to the ctp2 apolyton page to get the patch, there will be a link to the apolyton edition patch, clearly stating that this is the only thing you need to make ctp2 at it's best.

And don't underestimate this project. Even with civ4 it's still easily the second best civ game out there. Just got my wife adicted to ctp2AE (and this is someone who normally hates playing games), and we'll continue to use this for MP, as one of our computers won't be able to run civ4.

[Ekmek]

I'm certainly not a Civ hater, I did get addicted to Civ3 and my efforts show that I was trying to bring a lot that I (and others) liked about civ3 into Ctp2 (like my terrain graphics, cities, units, resource, citystyle only).

My Civ4 angst is that I feel the modding is going to be limited. Dont get mewrong I'd love it if it was the best tbs ever, but I've opted to wait and see what the modding community does with to see if I jump on board.

But the 3D graphic approach I already know will limit the modding community. Terrain graphics, buildings, and units are tough, this graphic approach seems to be similar to RoN which didnt get much of a modding community because the eye-candy isnt moddable even though the xml was there (but you couldnt add units ) looking at how modding begins it usualy starts with units and terrain graphics. We were fortunate that martin the dane made that accessible and civ3 had flicster come out early but even if tools come out for civ4 its going to be tough, so I'll wait and see. So thats my first turn off I can change the look of the game, even though I know gameplay is important. But I will watch civ4 and hope it is better, then perhaps too I'll migrate (but chances look dim so far)


As for direction: Maq has a point, but perhaps we should capitalize on AoM, and try to optimize it maybe incorporating a lot of it as the AE (with credit to stan of course). Other things we should maybe be upgrading the code AI so its less reliant on his SLIC (even though his frenzy approach sounds cool), i guess I can add a few of the features I added to AoM to make it a bit more unique. But i think diplomacy needs to be worked on in the code as well.

[HuangShang]

well, the up side that (i hope) has not been mentioned is:

we can rip cIV for graphics and the other stuff E did

and I'll love for a cIV: call to power mod too

[Solver]

Finally I am getting around to post this.

I do, overall, agree with Locutus. My opinion is that the Source Code Project should be given a decent closure, after which we people should move on to Civ4. Under Civ4, with Python and the SDK, it will be possible to recreate the CtP2 features, and also to develop something else, bigger.

Let's take a look at what the project has developed. We have a much better build of CtP2, with AI enhancements, improved interface, bugfixes, etc. Also, SLIC has been enhanced significantly to allow for better mods.

However, with the very low number of players and even lower number of modders, there would now be no sense to develop a new "CtP3" mod or whatever. AoM is a great mod, almost a sequel, but it wasn't built on the source builds anyway. Any new mod would take a year to produce under the most optimistic circumstances, which is not going to be the case.

Reasons to go Civ4:

1) It is even more moddable than CtP2, pre-source release of course.
2) Far, far more players. We have maybe two dozen active CtP2 players, and we're the only ones on the net, there will be thousands of online Civ4 players.
3) More modders. Mod development will happen much faster, new coders will be easier to get, some existing modders might be interested, etc.
4) Engine. CtP2 isn't an ancient engine yet, but in 2 years it's going to be one. The Civ4 engine is very nice and versatile.

Something to start with in Civ4 might be creating a CtP2 mod with the main CtP2 concepts. I bet some skilled modders such as Dale can make a stacked combat mod, CtP-style trade routes and unconventional units are no less possible.

Yep, that would be some pretty hefty modwork, but with Python, the SDK and a large modding community, it's very much possible, and should, in fact, not be the hardest modding project in history of this site. Of course, this mod would attract a much bigger number of players, too.

I believe that the Source Project should make an official release of CtP2:Apolyton Edition. The perfect time would be somewhere in January, just in time for the Civ4 SDK. I still have a pretty specific idea of what CtP2:AE should include, as I've always said.

1) Functionality and fixes of the Activison 1.11 patch. This is pretty much done.
2) Fixes of the other important and critical bugs, done.
3) Basic AI improvements. Done - pathfinding is improved and the AI is no longer a lobotomized hamster.
4) Balance and gameplay tweaks. Not done, but see proposal:

I believe, as I always did, that CtP2:AE should include one of the mods. IMO, the perfect mod for this is SAP2 with GoodMod. Why? Because this combination retains gameplay that is very close to that of the original CtP2, but it adds nice touches here and there and, most importantly, makes the AI quite acceptable.

Bottom line, my suggestion would be to concentrate on putting an official release out in around January, where the main change would be including an actual mod with it. Once we do that, an official patch can be made, installer and everything - thus, if someone new, by chance, comes accross, they can download the patch, install it over CtP2, and enjoy a much better game than sold in the box.

Also, I don't want to suggest a complete shutdown of all activities after that. There's simply no reason to. If nothing else, CtP2 is a great learning experiece for game programmers. As far as I am aware, it's the only big commecial TBS game with an open source code - although the release of the Civ4 SDK will come very close.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by Solver

Bottom line, my suggestion would be to concentrate on putting an official release out in around January, where the main change would be including an actual mod with it. Once we do that, an official patch can be made, installer and everything - thus, if someone new, by chance, comes accross, they can download the patch, install it over CtP2, and enjoy a much better game than sold in the box.

Does "we" mean youll be helping to finish it then?

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by E
I'm certainly not a Civ hater

Me neither E. Ive no hate for Firaxis either (although i disagree with some decisions they made in civ3), I just have a problem with people unjustly criticising CtP, and those people mostly came from the civ3 forums.

When someone posts stupid things about CtP2 such as, they turned on the grid lines by accident with the keyboard shortcut and theyre SURE theres no way to turn them off again, it just gives the game a bad image because some idiot hasnt explored the game for even 5 minutes. The same people who post to inform us all they tried CtP once but had to turn it off after one turn because they couldnt find out how to build roads, yeah thanks for sharing, have a slap.

[Ekmek]

Solver, thanks for your input especially since you had an "inside" look and comparison. But from your reviews it looks like Civ4 featues only these modifications from ctp2:

Siege units reduce city defense bonus
Religion – diplomacy bonus
Religion only buildings (units too?)
Can convert citizens
AI proposes messages more and asks for bribes when you are weak
Research label at top of screen
Screened messages not solid
Unit promotions and bonuses against units
Maintenance is multiplied by # of cities (add city pop too?)
Settlers cost food and shields to build
TI’s some improvements grow to bigger improvements
Bldg prerequisite for specialists and a number cap
Great people come from points earned by specialists and buildings and gets higher each time
Culture increases the city’s defenses

Maybe there is more I missed, the 3D engine may be better than CtP2's 2D one but I still think it may hamper graphic improvements (although ctp2 isnt exactly easy either)

But I hope some programers do put the ctp2 features. I will be watching the reaction and do have civ4 on the christmas list.

BUT AE RELEASE IN JANUARY. I think thats a great idea. And if anything besides the attention could serve as a preview as far as civ4 is concerned it can show what is possible when a company releases the code so it will add to the hype I guess.

I do hope civ4 is what is cracked up to be, i just cringe at how much work will have to be done to get in the cool ctp2 stuff...

[Dale]

Just so everyone's aware, I am going to be posting my response too. However I don't have time right now, and may not for a few days.

Dale

[hexagonian]

I will say the same thing here that I have said to Stan when discussing AOM.

I really feel that the future is with civ4.

And after numerous attempts to get people to try and play AOM, with limited success, I am even more convinced that this is the case. I have promoted AOM as a option to play before the release of civ4. Very few have publically said that they have bothered to try it...

I approached several high profile civ3 players to give the game a test. Nothing but excuses, yet I guarantee the week civ4 comes out, they will be running to the stores to be first to get it, and more than willing to go sleepless to break it in...

I have even sent AOM/CTP2 disks to people who have said they would give it a try. Two of the players went silent after they got the disks, with vague promises to get around to it someday. So much for that...

Yin was the only one who acted through on playing the game - of which I am thankful. He has also promoted AOM, but again, with little positive feedback from the community at large.

AOM is the absolute best and deepest Mod that has come out for any civesque game, up to this point in time, and it draws little or no fan interest, even in a downtime between the release of major game titles. Certainly not anywhere near the interest it deserves...

Heck, even at Stan's site, there are probably only 10-15 regular posters. And that number will not grow, once civ4 hits the shelves.

This is the future I see with CTP2 modding. Sorry to break the news this way.

What I did say to Stan is that the foundation that he has created for AOM looks to be transferable to civ4. However, I wonder if he has the energy to do an AOM version of civ4. He poured 2 years into that Mod. If he did, he would get the audience that he deserves though. Why...?

Because civ4 is the continuation of the civ-style legacy, and it will be the ONLY continuation of that legacy. There will be no official CTP3.

How many of you go back and HEAVILY play civ1??? civ2??? CTP1??? Very few, I would bet. That's human nature. Civ4 will be the ONLY standard for the next 4-5 years.

Firaxis has combined CTP and civ1-3 into a single game. Read Solver's analysis if you doubt it. And I can safely bet that out of all the civ4 betatesters, there are a few high profile CTP loyalists too. (and no, I am not one of them...) You can see the fingerprints of CTP all over civ4, and the fingerprints are big and dirty.

And this is great. It means that CTP has finally been recognized as a valuable member of the civ legacy, by Firaxis, no less.

What a rush when I can stick it to a civ fan who harps about the legacy of infinite rails, and now has to play with limited movement... How great it is to see Religion not merely as a set of buildings, but with missionaries and conversions... How great is it to see multiple tile improvement types, and sea tile improvements, roads and rails that only give movement... governments that are closer to the multiple slider setups of CTP than the civ2/civ3 model, and limit mindless and near infinite expansionism (caps and maintenance are very similar in end result)... a grouping command that moves combat toward a stacked format... units with strength and weaknesses against other units (does the pikemen bonus against mounted units ring a bell???)

Civ4 is CTP3!!! Get on board!!! You all have honed your modding skills here, now get the audience you all richly deserve.

Wrap this project up, but be willing to pour your smarts and energy into a game that will have a vibrant and huge fanbase - if you continue to have the modding itch.