2nd Anniversary of Source Code Release

[Ekmek]

Ok,

I'm not stirring up old news. But I've noticed the Civ4 forums have gotten less active. Not as bad as our own here maybe Civfanatics has sucked people away from apolyton

but there has been no SDK, I have barely seen units being made and all the discussion is about tweeking a text file here and there. Not much in the way of Python. i've seen civ3 boards start picking up again. What happened?

I didnt see peopleflock back to ctp2. But I did. When I got civ4 for Christmas I felt reluctant to start up because it would be the end of all I learned in CtP2. Well, after dealing with the system requirements, even getting a new graphics card, I havent played Civ4. it had fun elements but the moddability is NOT there.

Anyone else feel that? Any one explain what went wrong with Civ4?

[HuangShang]

i havent got it yet

and i havent been playing any games really cuz i dont have a working cd/dvd drive... but i gonna borrow one and make virtual clones of my games so i'll be able to play by springbreak (stm in april) and i can start playtesting each of E's revisions...

[Protra3211]

Im waiting till I can upgrade my computor. My HP(only 8 months old) is P4 with 512ram and 128video graphics and still I would need to spend at 150 dollars before I could enjoy the game. But even Galciv2 would need a little more to realy make it work right.

E I think if Ages of Man came out a year ago there would be more posting going on as Stan has gone way beyond what mods like Cradle and Apolyton Pack have done. Its all in the timing. I would even go as far to say that many would be posting AOM vs Civ4 with both coming out on top in some area of game play.
I of course cant do that as I have not played Civ4 yet.
But I do recall how many were upset that even with all game requirements listed on the game box it would not work right or would have to play on smaller maps. So this has turned some people off as a investment in upgrades plus a 50 dollar game is too expansive all at once. I would be more likely to buy Galciv2 as Brad Wardell does not take forever to fix his games.

[BureauBert]

Before the release of Civ IV I thought CTPII, the source code project and the modding community would soon be dead, seeing many CTPII keypersons switching to the Civ IV forums and praising the modding opportunities announced by Firaxis.

My experience with Civ IV has renewed my interest in CTPII -- since I am just unable to get it running in some reasonable way on my PC, which I bought about 1 1/2 years ago (it's not an explicit "gaming machine", but I am not willing to "upgrade" anything or even buy a new PC just for being able to play a particular game). Also, I am not willing to spend hours or days troubleshooting, trying to install different drivers, dll's, tweaking more/less hidden settings etc ... JUST FOR GETTING IT RUNNING TECHNICALLY.

In short: Civ IV is waiting in it's box -- for a major fix by Firaxis, or something ... If -- and only if -- it will eventually be playable on my PC I could be interested in it's modability.

But honestly I doubt that such a fix will ever be released. I am sure there are some serious bugs concerning memory usage, but the major bug is in the design. All that 3-d graphics stuff seems to need a lot of hardware resources, buggy or not, and I am still talking about mapsizes which don't represent a "world" for my taste. Plus there ist still no stacked combat (maybe this could be modded in, but why bother?).

I would really wish that some of the veterans of the CTPII community switched back to these forums. The source code project has already achieved a lot -- and I am eagerly waiting for a "relatively final, semi-official release" along with perhaps some more documentation on the newly introduced SLIC-features to try and test some of the Mods on the biggest maps the improved code can handle together with my ordinary but otherwise brave PC.

And of course I would like to try and re-build my own, humble Mod based upon the new design of textfiles and using the new SLIC-features (I am just unable to keep track with the current work in progress, so my Modfiles obviously became totally broken at some point -- I already started some cleaning up but with no success so far).

Finally: Apart from not being able to play a full game of Civ IV (it doesn't crash always, but it always gets awfully slow after a while, so that I just quit the game), I don't really like it's -- necessarily small -- "world" with all it's details in 3-d. I prefer the potentially bigger, a bit more "abstract" worlds of CTPII, focused on strategy and not on individual units and other details (though it is nice to have the opportunity to mod in some "details" like visible wonders, great leaders etc. -- and create different "best worlds" that way).

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by E
Ok,

I'm not stirring up old news. But I've noticed the Civ4 forums have gotten less active. Not as bad as our own here maybe Civfanatics has sucked people away from apolyton

but there has been no SDK, I have barely seen units being made and all the discussion is about tweeking a text file here and there. Not much in the way of Python. i've seen civ3 boards start picking up again. What happened?

I didnt see peopleflock back to ctp2. But I did. When I got civ4 for Christmas I felt reluctant to start up because it would be the end of all I learned in CtP2. Well, after dealing with the system requirements, even getting a new graphics card, I havent played Civ4. it had fun elements but the moddability is NOT there.

Anyone else feel that? Any one explain what went wrong with Civ4?

Well its gonna take some time for the really impressive modding work to come out for Civ4, remember how long it took to get something like Ages of Man after the CtP2 release but this has always been a tiny community in comparison. It would be unfair on Civ4 to compare the two, but the moddability of Civ4 is definitely there.

The SDK release seems to have slowed people down a bit, id bet quite a few serious people are waiting before they start working on a bigger mod, which may be the reason why more impressive mods havent been released yet.

Most of the new units ive seen have been reskins but there are a few new units too. Not bad for a game thats only a few months old.

edit: and i agree with BB, i still prefer CtP2 maps, not just because theyre bigger, but they look more detailed and interesting to look at, and certainly more varied.

[Ekmek]

I would really wish that some of the veterans of the CTPII community switched back to these forums. The source code project has already achieved a lot -- and I am eagerly waiting for a "relatively final, semi-official release" along with perhaps some more documentation on the newly introduced SLIC-features to try and test some of the Mods on the biggest maps the improved code can handle together with my ordinary but otherwise brave PC.

I too wish some would comeback, but they left a while ago it seems there goals were kind of limited to debugging stuff, but I miss them nonetheless.

As for "relatively final, semi-official release" I'm thinking VERY soon. the last thing I wanted to add was some warning messages like declaring war when you bump into someone. Other than that based on Protra and Fugi's playtesting and since Martin added stuff to make it compatible with AoM I'm ready for a "relatively final, semi-official release" SOON.


EDIT: just submitted when I saw this:

EXPANSION PACK ANNOUNCED: `WARLORDS`
(16 March 2006, 15:19 | Civ4 | 5 comments) 2K Games announced today that Firaxis is working on the first expansion pack for Civilization IV, which will be released this summer. It will be called Sid Meier`s Civilization IV: Warlords.

In the official press release, 2K Games discloses some details of what the pack will contain: An all-new expansion pack, Warlords pays homage to some of history`s greatest military leaders, delivering six new scenarios, giving players the chance to change the course of history with the help of their new powerful "warlord" unit. The expansion pack is loaded with new civilizations, new leaders and more units, resources and wonders that can be used in both single and multiplayer games - Locutus

I guess thats where the SDK went? Sadly, because of the experience with Civ4 this will be the first Civ or expansion I havent purchased (well, except CTP1 but I missed it because I was out of the country for that year)

[Maquiladora]

Well it says on my Civ4 box the SDK is "available for download in early 2006", so it would be pretty ****ty to bundle it with the expansion only. Seems very unlikely but you never know these days.

[EPW]

Hey guys, how goes the programming?

[Ekmek]

Hey EPW,

Well our 4th playtest thread has the latest. I have some builds that you put over the 10-23 playtest. I think we will have another playtest soon, if not a "official" release soon. You still playing?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by E
maybe Civfanatics has sucked people away from apolyton

Unfortunately, yes

but there has been no SDK

It will be out very soon. No, it will not be in the XP, it will be downloadable as part of a patch. The problem is that that patch is awaiting authorisation from 2K Games, and you know how it is with large companies: big wheels turn slow...

I have barely seen units being made and all the discussion is about tweeking a text file here and there. Not much in the way of Python. i've seen civ3 boards start picking up again. What happened?

It's all happening on CFC

but the moddability is NOT there.

That's bull, it's a lot more moddable than CtP2. Only thing it doesn't have is SLIC's pre-events, but those can be added very easily with the SDK (I don't really have plans to work with the SDK as Python is powerful enough for me for everything I have planned for now, but if there's one thing I'll do with it if noone else does, it's adding pre-events). In every other aspect it's more moddable, a lot more.

Originally posted by BureauBert
But honestly I doubt that such a fix will ever be released. I am sure there are some serious bugs concerning memory usage, but the major bug is in the design.

I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble. The next patch will address a lot of memory problems. I don't know if it'll help you, but it will certainly be a big improvement. I agree the rather demanding performance is the biggest downside of Civ4. Unfortunately progress always comes at a price, and performance was never one of Firaxis's strongpoints (Civ3 is a resource hog too, but on today's PCs noone will notice it anymore).

Plus there ist still no stacked combat (maybe this could be modded in, but why bother?).

It also has a lot of features CtP2 doesn't have, like strategic resources, culture, better diplomacy, religion, civics, great people, etc. And while I agree CtP2's stacked combat is preferable over Civ4's 1 vs 1 combat, the changes Civ4 introduced such as specialised unit types and promotions are pretty good as well. And I can assure you that once the SDK is out, it won't be long before we see stacked combat in Civ4 too

Finally: Apart from not being able to play a full game of Civ IV (it doesn't crash always, but it always gets awfully slow after a while, so that I just quit the game), I don't really like it's -- necessarily small -- "world" with all it's details in 3-d. I prefer the potentially bigger, a bit more "abstract" worlds of CTPII, focused on strategy and not on individual units and other details (though it is nice to have the opportunity to mod in some "details" like visible wonders, great leaders etc. -- and create different "best worlds" that way).

I don't agree with you there, IMO Civ4's world is not smaller than CtP2's. This is true for SMAC, but Civ4 is every bit as epic in my experience, it still has big armies and large numbers of cities and deals with big concepts. Maybe it's because you only play on small maps? You're perfectly in your right to feel that way of course, but that's not how I experience it.

What I personally like best about Civ4 is that's it's a truely diverse game. Civ1-3 and the CtP series are essentially wargames, it's all about building a big army and killing your opponents. Yes, there's a diplo and science victory too, but you still need a big empire to win those. War is really the only way to play (esp. in Cradle ) Civ4 really made builder strategies feasible, you can actually win the game without engaging in major wars of conquest if you don't want to. You can still do that if you want, but a small empire can really compete in terms of production and science with a larger one. It's a lot more feasible to build up rather than out. This is what I myself have always wanted from a Civ game. I'm not a warmonger, I'm a builder. So far for me CtP2-MedMod was the closed thing to a perfect Civ game (Cradle and AoM are more challenging, but they're much more wargames than they are builder games), now Civ4 is.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Locutus
What I personally like best about Civ4 is that's it's a truely diverse game. Civ1-3 and the CtP series are essentially wargames, it's all about building a big army and killing your opponents. Yes, there's a diplo and science victory too, but you still need a big empire to win those. War is really the only way to play (esp. in Cradle ) Civ4 really made builder strategies feasible, you can actually win the game without engaging in major wars of conquest if you don't want to. You can still do that if you want, but a small empire can really compete in terms of production and science with a larger one. It's a lot more feasible to build up rather than out. This is what I myself have always wanted from a Civ game. I'm not a warmonger, I'm a builder. So far for me CtP2-MedMod was the closed thing to a perfect Civ game (Cradle and AoM are more challenging, but they're much more wargames than they are builder games), now Civ4 is.

My Civ3mod is working towards that. we can have small wonders and the number cities can increase the cost of your improvements as well as your population size. Religion isnt there but so far my cde has added some new trading elements where you "plant" goods but building wheat farms, cattle ranches, and colony goods (cotton, tobacco, sugar, etc) and when you use ctp2 trade the recepient city gets a food or gold bonus, with lumber and especially oil your city gets a production bonuses (Oil will be huge) so there may wars for that.

We arent as pretty as civ4 but we are getting some nicer stuff like my graphics diplomod.

Atleast it will tie us over until we can all get computers that can run Civ4 and there are Civ4 mods out developed that meet our needs

[Protra3211]

Been reading the list of changes you have made E for the Civ3 mode and its just great.
Will be giving it a try soon but first want to finish up a very good game with build 553.
Once the work is done I hope Apolyton will interveiw some the coders to have their insight on how they improved the game.

[BureauBert]

rather demanding performance ... Unfortunately progress always comes at a price

True, and I am not willing to pay for the replacement of a 1 1/2 (in words: one and a half) year old machine just for being able to play a computer game. That has always been my problem with progress in consumer electronics (Un)fortunately, when it comes to Civ IV I am not the only one. A patch may come and we shall see ...

Of course it's a bit difficult for me to talk in detail about a game I can hardly play on my computer. Features like

strategic resources, culture, (...), religion, civics, great people

are genuine concepts of the Civ-Series, some of them can be modded into CTPII to a certain extent. Diplomacy can be slightly improved through modding, but the entire concept of bargaining is more flexible and diplomacy seems more important and hence more interesting in Civ IV. Promotions are a good thing, too -- though I am already fine with our UnitUpgrader.

Civ4's world is not smaller than CtP2's

I think -- as far as they can be compared, this is true for the default map sizes. Actually I tried the biggest mapsize offered by the default game, and I agree: It might very well equal the regular, "gigantic" size in CTPII.

My problem here is, that I got used to "ultra gigantic" (Apolpack 2, using the *real* but "deprecated" ultragig-settings from Apolpack 1) or "not quite ultra gigantic" (with most other Mods -- which usually contain a lot more SLIC) in CTPII. I am just unable to revert to anything significantly smaller. The "gigantic" map in Civ IV definitely is significantly smaller and I can't run the game in a reasonable way on that mapsize. So I don't see much hope I will ever be able to even try something like "ultra" or "not quite ultra" gigantic with Civ IV. Therefore mapsize might not be a genuine disadvantage of Civ IV compared to CTPII, but currently I do have the possibility to play "real big worlds" in more/less modded CTPII in a reasonable way, while I may be able to play small maps in Civ IV and even finish a game -- but that's not even worth a try for me. Of course this is a matter of personal taste, but I would rather have a game running smoothly on *real* big maps than zooming in 3-d on small maps .

truely diverse game ... made builder strategies feasible, you can actually win the game without engaging in major wars of conquest if you don't want to ...

While not being able to verify this, I trust your words . And this, of course, would be a major step forward. In the meantime I keep trying to design my own CTP II-Mod (which may never be finished) towards enabling builder strategies for HUMANs and AIs, myself being the "build-first-conquer-when-there-is-a-world-to-conquer-type" .

[Locutus]

Originally posted by BureauBert
True, and I am not willing to pay for the replacement of a 1 1/2 (in words: one and a half) year old machine just for being able to play a computer game. That has always been my problem with progress in consumer electronics (Un)fortunately, when it comes to Civ IV I am not the only one. A patch may come and we shall see ...

Yet my 5-year-old machine runs it smooth as a baby's bottom. You pointed out yourself you don't have a real gaming machine. Well, I guess that's the risk you took when you bought it...

But yes, if the game runs but it just runs poorly, the upcoming patch may well help you, let's hope so.

The "gigantic" map in Civ IV definitely is significantly smaller and I can't run the game in a reasonable way on that mapsize.

Of course Civ4 maps can be modded as well, so it all boils down to performance...

I can't reasonably run maps that are much larger than the default 'Gigantic' map in Civ4 either (actually I haven't even given Gigantic a good run for its money yet, mostly prefer smaller maps these days), but considering the age of my system, I'm not complaining.

Of course this is a matter of personal taste, but I would rather have a game running smoothly on *real* big maps than zooming in 3-d on small maps .

I prefer both And when I next upgrade my PC (which may be a while yet as my current system is still performing fine) I shall have both

When CtP2 first came out I couldn't play the Alexander scenario or the largest two map types either, my PC at that time just couldn't handle it. And it wasn't *that* bad a system (though not quite as new as yours is now). These things are always an issue for new games. Five years from now we'll all be playing super-uber-gigantic-montrous civ4 maps and laugh about the issues we're having today...

Of course if you can't bring yourself to play on small maps you have to shelf the game a few years if the next patch doesn't help. That's up to you...

While not being able to verify this, I trust your words . And this, of course, would be a major step forward. In the meantime I keep trying to design my own CTP II-Mod (which may never be finished) towards enabling builder strategies for HUMANs and AIs, myself being the "build-first-conquer-when-there-is-a-world-to-conquer-type" .

Well, best of luck with that If you do ever finish it I'll probably give it a try. Just because I mostly play/mod civ4 these days doesn't mean I have uninstalled any of my 5 CtP2 installations with all their various mods