PROJECT: Everyone read & discuss: Time for an official release?

[mapfi]

hi everyone - although I'm not actively participating and only just almost daily lurking to be up to date on the progress, I wanted to second EPW - I'd very much like to see just that

[LDiCesare]

I'd like to see a release. I downloaded the game files a few times since the start of the project but never played a lot with them because the vanilla game was still too much of the same and I couldn't run mods like Cradle.
If you decide to make a release and advertise it, you definitely need to join some files of SAP, either as part of the game or as a separate mod. (Note: I stopped playing because of crappy ai after all, though not after one week, and I later came back to the game thanks to mods).
[Edit]
Incorporating some kind of modswapper to the game itself would be a good thing to do too, by the way. Setting a list of mods in some menu, and requiring a mod to say which version it's compatible with so you can pick only those which can work?

[Solver]

Originally, the scenario selection screen was supposed to work like a built-in mod selector. I'm not sure how much of that code was changed, but at some point, the load scenario button would be sufficient.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Originally, the scenario selection screen was supposed to work like a built-in mod selector. I'm not sure how much of that code was changed, but at some point, the load scenario button would be sufficient.

And it can be still used like this. However because the scenarios were buggy ModSwapper was introduced. However as far as I know there is still a little bug concerning quicksaves.

Originally posted by Maquiladora

Originally posted by Solver
I would strongly suggest that Apolyton Pack 2 + GoodMod text files go together as 'official' for CtP2:AE. The reasoning as as follows. These mods significantly improve the AI and add many nice feautures and impove game balance. Yet, they are not as radical as Cradle, and basically are not too different from the vanilla game, so they'd go in fine.

I don't think we should jump the gun here and include all changes from SAP2 without looking at them all again individually. I need to look at SAP2 again but I particularly didn't like no production on beaches, although at one time I thought this was good in terms of realism, I think it was an unncessary change for realism and a big impact on gameplay that didn't need an impact.

That's right we need to take a look on each change.

I also don't like the giant costs of the later advances in Apolyton Pack. Those costs makes it impossible to research the last advance without using scientists massivly. However specialists are too powerfull anyway.

Other files like APOL_pop.txt and APOL_wonder.txt just add an additional record just to fix bugs concerning the first record. I think these bugs have to fixed in the source instead of of worked around.

However the base of Apolyton CityMod2 is now in the latest release. The altered parchments shouldn't be included as the DiploManager should be redesigned and we have at least now some smal diplo photos in. Maybe we can use the altered build lists in GoodMod that actual comes from player1's "Mymod", the rest balancing the strategies.txt should we do on our own (in particular calvitex) as we have now the source code and can now know what's going on under the surface.

Another thing is the altered DiffDB.txt. The one of GoodMod is inspired of Cradle and gives mainly huge boni to the AI, well on impossible level that's ok, because it is impossible, but on the lower levels it should be managable, not so extreme.

Another point are the slic files in the end all this AI improving stuff belongs into the ctp2.exe itsself.

So far I think FrenzyAI can be replaced by what we have now. The commerce tile improvements for AIs slic is actual already in also there is still room for improvement. The fort for AIs slic must still be included. And here are two tasks to extend the borders of the empire to connect the various parts by roads and fortification of the borders. However the latter isn't actual really done by the GoodMod stuff.

And if we are talking about GoodMod we need then of course the new goods. And for that we would need something that can handle it that when a savegame is loaded and if some of the good indeces are screwed up, that this is corrected automaticly instead answered with a crash.

However one main point that must be included is a well improved AI, maybe there might then still room for further improvement when we release, but that is important that the AI is notably improved. And without that I would say no official release.

-Martin

[Solver]

AI improvement is important for the official release, and that's exactly why I think we want those mods included, although in a modified way if we need to. SAP and GoodMod SLIC additions make the AI more potent. Not the aggressive Cradle killing machine, but still potent enough to be a challenge. Ideally, I'd want an AI as powerful as in Cradle but without the dramatic Cradle changes, but that's different...

FrenzyAI is better left disabled. It's after all a very early script, and is buggy. Specifically what has annoyed me a lot, if a certain AI stack is set to attack you, it will do so when it can, even if you have ceasefire/peace. As a result, it would be nearly impossible to get out of war status once a war started, which largely killed the game.

Specialists are of course a separate balance issue, we'd have to really see about them and other balance changes. How about we start a new thread maybe for discussing the balance and AI changes we want in the official release, whenever it is?

By the way, gotta remember there was a bug with the playtests where you'd always lose the first advance in the advance.txt a turn after you get it.

[Martin Gühmann]

Yes AI improvement is important and Calvitex is working on it. The problem is that I fear that those scripts interfere with the changes on the AI we are doing currently.

And of course we need to tidy our official release, espeacily if we want to make sure to reach a wider audience. I am thinking about making some game papers to include it on their CDs, that would also reach people who don't play anymore CTP2.

-Martin

[Solver]

Yes, I noticed work of Calvitex and appreciate it greatly - he seems to know what he's doing with the AI . Are your suspicions on SLIC scipts interfering with those AI changes just suspicions or based on something? The way I see it, hard-coded AI routines in the .exe take precedence over whatever the SLIC codes dictate, but I may be wrong there.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Are your suspicions on SLIC scipts interfering with those AI changes just suspicions or based on something? The way I see it, hard-coded AI routines in the .exe take precedence over whatever the SLIC codes dictate, but I may be wrong there.

Sure it depends on the kind of slic code, for instance frenzy gives continuously move orders to the frenzied stacks, to make sure to overwrite everything, and Peter's airunit slic just deletes an airunit to create it in an AI base just to make sure that it returns on the same turn, actual that is cheating and since we have the source code it isn't necessary anymore. And also my better AI slic tries to rearange the armies, just to make sure that no settlers are in attack stacks, and that interferes with the NeedsEscord flag in the orders.txt. And finally the version of better AI that I released as unfinished work, controlls the AI and is in comparision to Cradle a real killing machine, if it shares with you the same continent.

-Martin

[calvitix]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

However one main point that must be included is a well improved AI, maybe there might then still room for further improvement when we release, but that is important that the AI is notably improved. And without that I would say no official release.

-Martin

Hi,

My work on AI isn't finished at all, I'm working on a new update, with Martin's requests, bug corrections and a better balance.

I think we have to wait a little until we have a stable AI.
(It works not bad for the moment, but I have several problems to correct before a release).

The problem with AI modifications (in source code and in txt files) is that it always implies a lot of consequences that are particullary difficult to test.

I alone can't find them all. So I'll ASAP post the new update (1.3), soucecodes and ctp2.exe too, so that all who want to help us by testing the new AI behavior can do it.

I have connection problem, so I'll be not very often in forums, but I'm still alive. (I'll a new connection in a week...)

[Ekmek]

I'm dying for an official release, but I think:


1) we need a little more playtesting.

2) I prefer to wait on calvitrix's additional AI improvements especially an AI that deals better with amphibous assaults and overseas colonization

3) I think having SAP2 as pasrt of the release is a good idea. but not sure on the terrain values...

[Solver]

I prefer to wait on calvitrix's additional AI improvements especially an AI that deals better with amphibous assaults and overseas colonization

If we can get the AI to be focused in wars and be a least half-decent overseas, I'll be wetting myself with excitement. But can someone say if that's possible in the near future?

I think having SAP2 as pasrt of the release is a good idea. but not sure on the terrain values...

It seems that most of us agree that it's generally a good idea to include SAP2/GM, but reviewing some specific changes first.

[Abdul Alhazred]

I have the french version of CTP2 ...

Find the US should an hell affair in difficulty matter ...

I suggest that you offer to download entire version of this US Game

I have 1024 KB/sec connection ...

He is open source after all ?

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I have the french version of CTP2 ...
Find the US should an hell affair in difficulty matter ...
I suggest that you offer to download entire version of this US Game
I have 1024 KB/sec connection ...
He is open source after all ?

We are updating the English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish versions of the game, thay are all included in the download…

[Myrddin]

I've been following the project and can see that progress has been made, but what I'd like to see before an official version is released is:

- a stable build (which seems to be there)
- an improved AI (which is developing although there is much more to be done)
- an easy to download version (no fiddling with getting the correct updated files into th eright places)
- improved mod handling (much of the fun with CTP2 now is that the mods can give you very different games)
-multiplayer (not for me)

Overall make it stable, simple and interesting

[Flinx]

Originally posted by child of Thor
point 5:
i'm not sure on this one. As its so hard to get hold of a copy of CTP2 these days, maybe we need to go have a look in our local area's to see if we can find any copies for sale, then have a thread here letting people know where they are(like a 'where to find CTP2' thread or something).
I've got no idea how many people play CTP2 these days? So its difficult to know how best to get the word out. Most CTP2ers that look for info on the net will find us here at poly i'm guessing(if you google for CTP2 poly links turn up alot).
Maybe start a thread in the Civ3 forums?

I purchased a second copy of CTP2 a few weeks ago and I posted about it then... Someone also mentioned seeing it in Europe somewhere...

www.xplosiv.net is republishing it as a CD only (that is what I bought) and you can also order it online from them.