DESIGN: Celebration effect ideas?

[Gilgamensch]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Maybe increase the number of them, but definitely increase their effect. Like... maybe... double.

Sorry....now you lost me

[MrBaggins]

but definitely increase their effect. Like... maybe... double.

Instead of having +2 happiness.. make it +4.. maybe +5.

[Gilgamensch]

You mean increase the effect of the building but decrease the effect of the entertainer? Would make sense (also for the AI).

For the government type:

Why shall be there so strikt limits?

In the moment an example for it: US and not so much unhapiness (little bit differnt during Vietnam though).

Old times: Greek, they had the earliest Dem and still fought wars.

[MrBaggins]

Well.. Vietnam is a perfect example... a lot of unhappiness... War Weariness, not only because of a large military, but also being at war AND taking casualties.

There is obviously some opposition to whats gone on recently in Iraq, in the US, and if there were much higher body counts, then there would have been more serious problems.

I'm sure this was no different in even ancient "free societies"... people don't like their family members being at risk, by going to war, and especially don't like them dying.

[MrBaggins]

Also... don't forget that US cities have a lot of happiness improvements, entertainers, and the Hollywood wonder

[Gilgamensch]

But again it wasn't just one city (besides the capitol) having problems it was mainly then the nation.

And yes, they have a lot of propganda-machinery

In 'ancient' times it was slightly different I think. At least people knew why they were fighting (like defending against the tyran next door).

[MrBaggins]

Correct... but War Weariness does effect the nation equally in CTP2... just as support is spread equally. This conversation is a bit moot, since we're changing CTP2, and not Civ2.

I just wanted to make a point about happiness being a concern (and hence a strategic CHOICE) in civ2... not that it was perfectly modelled in civ2

[Gilgamensch]

Agreed it wasn't perfect in CIV2 as well as in CTP2.

I still see the human having to much advantage.

SO your idea of decreasing the effectivness of the entertainer quite ok, but OTH we shall maybe allow multiple buidlings.

[MrBaggins]

We could do... but isn't this the same as making the existing buildings more powerful?

Isn't it better to have:

Temple +5

than...

Shrine +2
Temple +3

The first way would reduce micromanagement... no?

[Gilgamensch]

But if we do this, espacially the AI will have problems producing it in time (same maybe for the human).

With allowing multiple you can manage it easier at the long run. Also for the AI it would be easier to calculate (me think....)

The micromanagment for this we have the great buildlists

[MrBaggins]

Actually, I think its the other way around:

AI's will typically build a whole set of improvements, when they would have been better off doing what the human was doing... building units, settlers and getting his public works economy going, while using entertainers to control happiness.

If you remove entertainers til mid-game, then the human can't use that trick to out-expand the AI, so much, since he'd have to build the happiness buildings, instead of just micromanaging entertainers.

Entertainers at mid-game make sense, since thats when pollution, and population overcrowding starts becoming a big unhappiness issue.

[Gilgamensch]

Sorry long run, I meant the long run through the dark ages.........

But did we manage to teach the AI proper handling of Ent/Far/Scien/...?

[MrBaggins]

Plus... what makes you think that if the AI can't build one happiness building better than the human, that its any easier building two? Isn't that harder, instead?

[Gilgamensch]

Not sure. I haven't looked close into the source, but if we give +5 the calculating is much harder, than just having a +2. With +2, each round a simple check:

Hap > 75, Ent := Ent -1

Hap > 73, don't do anything

Hap < 73, add Ent.

Ent > 1, build hapiness building.

With +5, it would make a difference.

[MrBaggins]

Its actually a bit more complicated than that.

You can use empire sliders in some cases... and aim for happiness wonders.

The first step is to not do things which will create big happiness issues in the first place, unless you have "surplus" hapiness in each city.

I.E.

• Don't conquer that extra city, when you're maxed out on empire size, and at the limit of your current happiness capability
• Don't excessively build units, if its causing WW. (We should include a WW impact value for each unit, so that defensive units have less impact, and the AI has a choice to build these without massive happiness impact.)
• Don't found a city if its too far away, and will have happiness penalties. If you've maxed out available land, then work on getting better transportation.. I.E. railroads, build up PW, and build a network.
• Build and keep an appropriate emergency fund able to rush buy an appropriate early happiness building.

Smart management needs to be more about preempting issues, and avoiding them, than reacting to them. This is the way a human works. If an AI is always reacting, rather than preempting and preparing, it will always be behind the 8-ball.