DESIGN: CtP2 Source Code released - our actions [brainstorm & discussion]

[SMIFFGIG]

Smiff, Doom source was released in 1995, while Doom 1 was a 1990 game.

ok 5 years ....... always someone

[Solver]

IW - many here have enthusiasm for modding .

Smiff, Doom source was released in 1995, while Doom 1 was a 1990 game.

[Immortal Wombat]

Yeah, but enthusiasm for playing and enthusiasm for wading through acres of code and a hundred different versions to get a playable exe are two entirely different matters.

Also, hard-coding something which could be SLICed is counterproductive.

[SMIFFGIG]

What has happened is a one off occurance

The source code, for a game that is only 3 years old!!

and with no other competiting games around it (Civ3 is not a very good game but has some nice features)

the only other game ive known the source code to be released for is DOOM..... and that was 10years after it was made.

The source code for CtP2 really does open many doors and i think once things start getting up and going and amazing mods/patches are being made for CtP2 the community will grow ALOT, thus more modders/programmers

[Solver]

Nah, a community can do anything... provided interest and enthusiasm exist. Sure, many great projects did fall apart quickly, but that was mainly because of people losing interest. Seeing how many of us have been playing CtP for 4 or 5 years, I do doubt that interest will fade. If anything, this got me nostalgic about the cool German sounds from my copy of CtP1. Gotta add those to CtP2...

[Peter Triggs]

I think we have to be very careful about biting off more than we can chew; in fact we should go for a 'conservative expansion' of CTP2 ( @ Locutus).

[Solver]

Martin has a point... it's not that wise to bring in a ton of new feautures via editing the source code, it would be wiser to extend the mod abilities, so that you can do, say, space via mods and SLIC.

Like, minor civs are much better implemented through SLIC then, than source.

Yup, I also think that we should, at some point, come up with other stuff we miss from CtP1 and want to see back. Love CtP1 style rankings window, for instance.

And, another proposal - extend diplomacy. Create a bargaining table a-la Civ 3, to enable trading of 234 gold and Writing for Advanced Spaceflight .

[Ekmek]

Re: Minor Civlizations

Originally posted by SMIFFGIG
Minor Civilizations, these would have 1 or 2 cities and couldnt expand and the cities had there own unique style

they wouldnt come up or be part of the 7 or 6 civs already on the map, but you could ally with them and each minor civ would be powerful in some way for there size and have something unique about them
e.g a Technology that was unique to them that allowed a unique unit or City improvement for example

you could either gain this by killing them and hoping to steal it whilst looting there cities (wich wouldnt be a 100% chance) or by slowly gaining good relations with them then allying and eventually merging them into your civilization so all there cities become yours

this peaceful way would gaurentee 100% that you would gain watever unique advantage that this minor civ has to offer.

Im sure this would be difficult but with the source code it would also be possible

Would this be possible by making a"copy" of the barbarian computer player and changing the AI attitude and also creating a barbarian only tech (namd after the minor civ) that allowed for unique units, buildings, city styles, or units? This would be possible, but I wonder if it means we can go over the 32 civ unit since computers are much faster now.

[Maquiladora]

What about increasing the 12 unit limit on one tile?

[SMIFFGIG]

Minor Civlizations

yea maquiladora is right

that sort of info should only be available through spying

EDIT:
ok i just had to add this
but another nice feature would be

Minor Civilizations, these would have 1 or 2 cities and couldnt expand and the cities had there own unique style

they wouldnt come up or be part of the 7 or 6 civs already on the map, but you could ally with them and each minor civ would be powerful in some way for there size and have something unique about them
e.g a Technology that was unique to them that allowed a unique unit or City improvement for example

you could either gain this by killing them and hoping to steal it whilst looting there cities (wich wouldnt be a 100% chance) or by slowly gaining good relations with them then allying and eventually merging them into your civilization so all there cities become yours

this peaceful way would gaurentee 100% that you would gain watever unique advantage that this minor civ has to offer.

Im sure this would be difficult but with the source code it would also be possible

[Maquiladora]

The Ranking Screen should be like it was in CTP1 IMHO, just a simple overall ranking. In CTP2 you get far too much information which makes it easier to choose who to attack and who to ally with, which is information you shouldnt really know, like knowing how powerfu;l a military all your enemies have? Thats strange and really takes away some of the mystery of the game.

And like Martin said in one of these threads, bring back the pollution screen at some point.

[MrBaggins]

My point with repeatable randomness is that CtP2 apparently uses a "real" random function, using a timer to set a random seed, this means any reload will cause differences.

What I'd suggest instead, as per Civ3, is a pseudo random function, where a seed is set, then a mathematical process performed, to generate a "random" result (which is the seed for the next "roll".) Then the AI will make the same "choices" after a reload; each roll is essentially random, but consistent.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Re: repeatable randomness, I'm fairly sure I remember that it was demonstrated in the CTP2DG that results were NOT consistent based on a single save game. People got different results, very often.

Yes this was demontrated there, one reason for this is that the AI has the right to come to different decision, does it more its stack West or East South or North, does it attack or does not it attack. So differnt reactions and actions of the AI leads to different results. Well you could argue that is because the AI can't think strategicly. So this is not a problem of randomness this is a problem of the bad AI that has no idea what is a best for the next turns. But even with a better AI small variations must be allowed otherwise the AI is not smart and can't react properly.

On the other hand the differences are also caused by the different action of the players, not every step was done equally on all machines for instance forgetting to add an entertainer here.

Well and finally random influences. It is bad luck if you lose in one game one more archer then in the other game. For instance how do you want to determine the result of a battle with two stacks with exactly the same strength, which one should win. The attacker or the defender, because they attack or they defend, or because of the terrain boni. If the advantage of one stack is just small over the other one then there must be change that both can win. Otherwise the AI could be programmed so that it only attacks if it is sure that the AI win. There must be some uncertainess in it otherwise some of the fun would be missing, and this wouldn't be real live. And actual the randomness is not such a big, mostly it were just three units more or less maybe six, but not the difference between losing and winning. And actual in a normal game this phenominon doesn't play a rhole. And I am shure the level of random applies to Civ2 and Civ3, maybe the randomness of the outcome of a battle there is bigger then in CTP1/2, because of the less units stats there.

-Martin

[MrBaggins]

Re: repeatable randomness, I'm fairly sure I remember that it was demonstrated in the CTP2DG that results were NOT consistent based on a single save game. People got different results, very often.

[Martin Gühmann]

I think the problem with this non working fetures of CTP1 in CTP2 is that the programmers wanted to rewrite the whole engine but weren't able to finish their work.

An example are the disapeared diplomatic photos they are in the *.zfs files but aren't used. In this case it looks like the programmers screwed up something in the last minute.

Another think I am missing is the pollution graph.

Originally posted by hexagonian
As a non-programmer, but a Modder, I'm wondering if the proposed fixes and changes are going to cause a host of conflicts with the existing major Mods?

Let's just say I'd hate the thought of rebuilding 'Cradle' from scratch...

As long as we don't alter any text filese that are modified in Cradle a new ctp2.exe would be compartible with it. But just fixing bugs is not much, so for instance if we want the redirect trade route feature in the game then roads for instance need the Freight field that is not available in the current version. So to make Cradle use of this new feature you would add this field to your Cradle tileimp.txt. So you just need to add the new fields to your text files, no need to start from scratch. It would be just an update.

-Martin