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Making Cradle 3+ fully compatible with the Apolyton Edition

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  • Replacement Wonder Movies:

    Cradle 5 has a mixture of new movies along with others that were borrowed from CtP1, CtP2, and Cradle 3. All of them have full motion and most include the same background music. However, two do not. The Silk Road and the Manhattan Project had to be borrowed from Cradle 4, which - for mod size reduction reasons - replaced all the Wonder movies with single-image videos that didn't move or include sound. However, those two now stick out like a sore thumb in comparison to all the others in Cradle 5, and so both have been recreated using full motion video and background music.

    As an aside, even though Cradle 5.1 is adding 4 new movies, we're also removing 7 others (not needed for various reasons), so the total effect is a small increase of only 2.2MB.

    Click image for larger version

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    To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

    From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

    Comment


    • Hagia Sophia Wonder Unit:

      While we're on the subject of Wonders, the Great Library text is wrong, since it claims that this wonder "gives Special Unit Charlemagne", but that unit comes instead from the House of Charlemagne wonder. Thinking about this a bit more, there's a good case for granting a free Patriarch unit instead. If ANY wonder was to give a free Patriarch, it should be this one since the historical structure was built in Constantinople and it was the "home city" for one of the original 5 "patriarchates" and eventually became the headquarters of the Eastern Orthodox church after the "Great Schism". Files changed: GL.txt and wonderunits.slc​
      To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

      From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

      Comment


      • Wonder Unit "Victory Enslavement" changes:

        1) Genghis Khan: Enslavement in Cradle populates cities, but Genghis is the Great Leader of a non-urban Nomad society. While the Mongols did take slaves, for the most part it was for re-sale or the taking of women who were integrated into the tribe (which is already represented by the Cradle "Captive" units). Attila is a similar Great Leader and he does not have this ability, probably for that very reason. Accordingly v5.1 will remove Genghis' Victory Enslavement capability.

        2) Saladin: Of the 8 Great Houses in Cradle, the Wonder units for 2 of the last 4 did not have Victory Enslavement, and removing it from Genghis leaves Saladin as the lone exception. However, while the Moslem armies of the era did take slaves, it was primarily for resale or to serve in the Galleys and the harems. In general, from the Medieval period onward, armies did not pursue conquests for the express purpose of taking slaves, and removing Victory Enslavement from Saladin aligns with that reality. Slavery as a widespread institution still existed, of course. Anyway, the enslavement levels under the Caliphate are fairly low, and at this stage of the game will mostly be generated by the remaining Ancient Era Wonder Units, Slavers and the Janissary unit (more on that next).

        - Files changed: Units.txt & Great_Library.txt​
        To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

        From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

        Comment


        • Additional Victory Enslavement Issue:

          Cradle 5 has a number of mechanisms designed to ensure that VictoryEnslavement ends with the discovery of "Age of Reason". For example, all the Wonder Units with this ability are automatically upgraded to Brigadier or Field Marshall (see Post# 216). However there is one exception. The Janissary unit retains the ability (a 20% chance of enslaving the enemy in any battle), and although the unit is "Gov-specific" for Caliphate alone, that form of Government lasts until Democracy (which is only available several Advances AFTER "Age of Reason"), and even then there's no requirement to make a change in Government. So we'll still have units that can take slaves even after the Emancipation Proclamation Wonder eliminates them from cities world-wide. Admittedly all slavery did not end at that time (it still exists in the Modern World), but the levels are extremely low in comparison to the empires of the Ancient Era. The other factor is that most civs will be using the Caliphate Gov during this period, and the Janissary unit is the only offensive infantry unit available. That means armies will have a LOT of Janissaries, so Victory Enslavement is going to generate quite a few slaves, even with a 20% enslavement chance. By contrast, there are only 12 Wonder Units total with this ability in the entire game, but you could have that many Janissaries in a single stack! The only other non-Wonder unit with VictoryEnslavement is the Praetorian, but it exists concurrent with the (cheaper) Legion, so the player (and AI) has an Infantry alternative for their armies.

          Before getting into solutions, the important thing was to test the algorithm. How exactly do these percentages work? Is the calculation made per unit, per stack, per count of destroyed units, what? I'll spare you the details but extensive testing revealed the mechanism:

          THE RULE: When units have a "VictoryEnslavement" percentage, the game derives a single percentage for each combat by summing up the percentages of each unit in the stack, but ignoring all numbers higher than 100%. For example, since Janissary units each have a 20% chance, a stack containing 5 Janissaries has a 100% chance of generating a slave. But if there were 6 or more Janissaries in the stack, the percentage would not increase beyond 100%.

          So what does this mean? For one thing, 20% is too high, given the number of Janissaries that will be in the game over the extended period between Caliphate and Democracy. Otherwise enslavement will continue at a very high level. There is no doubt that the Ottoman Empire (the historical employer of the Janissaries) and it's allies did retain the slavery institution long after the Emancipation Proclamation (primarily Christian men as Galley rowers and women for harems), and while the numbers were not huge, it still existed. Accordingly, it's "OK" (in historical terms) if a few slaves pop up in cities after the Proclamation, but there should not be many if we want Cradle to reflect the "World Reality" of that period. In addition, the Patriarch units will still remain, and they have the ability to free those few slaves which appear post-Proclamation.

          Additional testing showed that 2% per unit generates the low number of slaves we're looking for. With that number, even a stack of 12 Janissaries has only a 24% chance of generating a slave, and most stacks will have fewer than this. Also, now that we understand the mechanism, it's clear that 20% is also too high for the Praetorians. Having 5 in a stack would guarantee a successful enslavement in every battle, and that's too easy, even given the widespread existence of slavery during the Classical Era. Accordingly that number will be reduced to 10%, and might eventually drop further.

          - Files changed: Units.txt & Great_Library.txt​
          To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

          From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

          Comment


          • Hero Promotion Issue:

            The code in elite.slc allows "Ancient Era" elite units to be promoted to Hero (and from Hero to Great General), as a reflection of an Ancient Era system under which individual heroism in battle was recognized and often led to promotion and followers. As such, the Hero and Great General sprites are Classical Era infantryman. However, if any of the Ancient Era elite units are not upgraded, they will continue to serve in armies during late Medieval periods and beyond, all while the Hero promotion code is still active. It's not really a bug, but we don't want units like this perpetually swaggering around the map, especially since there's code in place to automatically upgrade all of them with the Age of Reason.

            Slic coding is not my specialty, but in this case I was able to insert just 3 lines of code into elite.slc (rows 163-165) and extensive testing (see example) has confirmed that while normal units can still be promoted to Elites (a key Cradle feature from the beginning until the end), promotions to Hero and Great General now cease as each civilization discovers the "Dark Ages" Advance.

            - Files changed: elite.slc & Great_Library.txt

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            Last edited by Kull; October 1, 2025, 14:25.
            To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

            From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

            Comment


            • Mounted Archer Battle Issue:

              Although the Mounted Archer is categorized as a "Ranged Unit", on the battleboard it always takes a position in the front row. Even in cases where it has the same attack value as another unit (such as the Hoplite) it will be selected first (see left image). If the stack includes units with better Attack values, the Mounted Archer never provides ranged attack support, but sits in the first row, waiting it's turn. Checking the unit stats, I noticed that the unit has identical stats for Attack and Ranged (A15 & R15) so as a test the Ranged value was changed to 16 and that made the difference. The Mounted Archer now performs as a ranged unit in battle (see right image)

              - File changed: Units.txt

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              To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

              From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

              Comment


              • Road-type TIMP cost revision:

                TIMP Costs were addressed (and reduced) as part of the "TIMP Project" (See Post# 328 and those which follow) and separately to deal with some outliers (See Post# 353). What was not looked at were the TIMP costs for the various Road types, and it's clear they should have been reviewed as well. As just one example, CtP2 Railroad costs range from 120 to 800 while the Cradle range is 240 to 1400. That's because the Cradle progression of Road>Stone Road>Railroad has the exact same costs as the CtP2 Road>Railroad>Maglev, even though technologically "Stone Roads" appear at Advance Level 8 while you don't get Railroads until L16.

                Accordingly, a better approach is to price Stone Roads at the midway point between Road and Railroad, and then set Railroad & Maglev to match the values in CtP2. By contrast, considering the construction difficulties one would face when building a "real world" Undersea Tunnel, their TIMP cost was understated (often the same or less than a Maglev) and has thus been increased.

                - Files changed: tileimp.txt & tilerefund.slc

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                To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

                From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

                Comment


                • Government Statistics Analysis:

                  I've noticed a few things involving Gov stats which either don't makes sense (the comparatively high level of science under Theocracy vs. Tribunal Empire) or which have such negative consequences that the player is better off seeking to avoid that type of Gov altogether. For example, the Science level drops from 80% to 60% when going from Republic to Dictatorship which is so damaging that most players will seek to avoid that gov type altogether. Accordingly, a number of new settings have been implemented to address the issue (see attachment):

                  * Science Levels: Tyranny drops from 50>40%, Dynasty drops from 60>50%, City State drops from 70>60%, Republic drops from 80>70%, Dictatorship stays at 60% (but Knowledge rises from 1.35 > 1.5), Theocracy drops from 70>60% (w/Knowledge from 1.8 > 1.7), and Communism rises from 60>70% (but Knowledge drops from 1.9 > 1.8). In the late game, most of the Science levels will also decrease: Ecotopia (90>85%), Technocracy (100>90%), and Virtual Democracy (100>95%)

                  * Gold Coefficient: Republic rises from 1.2 > 1.3 (still much lower than those near it) while Theocracy drops from 1.8 > 1.5 (it should not be higher than Empire or Monarchy!)

                  The result of these changes is that it's now worth going from City State to Oligarchy (rather than wait for Republic) and the shift from Republic to Dictatorship won't crater your science so badly that it has to be avoided. Similarly, going from Tribunal Empire to Theocracy is now generally a downer rather than a benefit (the first "Dark Ages" gov-type should not IMPROVE your science!), and the move from Theocracy to Monarchy is an improvement and thus something to embrace, not avoid. The other benefit is to slow down the pace of science in the early game, which I've noticed is zooming along too quickly (even on "Hard", my test campaign achieved Monarchy in 500 BC).

                  - File changed: govern.txt

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                  To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

                  From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

                  Comment


                  • Revising the Gov-type "TooManyCitiesThreshold":

                    Cradle 5 provided a marginal increase to most of the per-government city limit thresholds, but retained the +5 differential when going from one to the next. That is the level of increase we see over the entire course of the game as the player shifts from one government type to another, regardless of era. However, once the game enters the mid-to-late Medieval era the economic and production power of every civ begins to grow exponentially, but the tiny increase in city threshold limits makes it effectively impossible to recreate the pre-Industrial "Whole World Empires" such as those of Spain and England.

                    Interestingly, the AOM mod recognized this shift, since you suddenly saw a massive increase in the "TooManyCitiesThreshold" for governments of the Industrial & Modern eras when compared to those of the Medieval period. For example, the city thresholds skyrocket from 50 (Sultanate) to 75 (Democracy/Fascism/Communism) eventually reaching 90-100 with the Future-era governments. That's a bit much for Cradle, but something similar is certainly needed. Accordingly, the "TooManyCitiesThreshold" is going to increase in line with the attached chart, which compares AE to Cradle 3 then Cradle 5 then AOM and finally Cradle 5.1

                    - File changed: govern.txt

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                    To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

                    From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

                    Comment


                    • Religious Victory Tracking Screen:

                      The "Religious Influence" status tracking screen lists civs by number and by color (not by name). The problem is that in Cradle 5 it uses the original CtP2 colors and it can only display 16 civs. This has now been modified, and the colors now match the default setup in Cradle 5.1 and it scrolls through 4 screens that display all selectable civs.

                      - Files changed: feat_str.txt & culture_msgs.slc
                      ​
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                      To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

                      From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

                      Comment


                      • Naval System Issues:

                        - What kicked off this review was noticing that two upgrades resulted in naval units that can carry FEWER land units. For example, the Bireme can transport 2 units and upgrades to the Longship which only carries one. I ran a test and if you load two land units on a Bireme and then upgrade it, one of the two land units just disappears. I can't say for sure if that results in any long term instability (unlikely), but it's certainly not optimal. That led to a deeper examination of the entire ancient-to-medieval Naval system, and the more I looked, the worse it got. The whole system is fraught with issues, so let's go through them:

                        1) Transport Capacity disconnects: As indicated above (and looking first at ships which upgrade in the same sequence), the transport capacity begins at 2 land units (Coracles), stays at 2 with Biremes, drops to 1 with Longships and then jumps to 4 with Galleons. Oddly enough, the Carrack (capacity of 5) is not part of that sequence, but eventually it does upgrade to the Galleon (with capacity dropping from 5 to 4). Since all AI units upgrade automatically with the discovery of each enabling Advance, it's not just a theoretical problem, but will definitely cause the AI to lose land units unless something is done.

                        2) Coracle: The first in-game vessel is the Coracle, but historically that name refers to a type of tiny round tub made from animal skins. It held a single paddler and was primarily used in the lakes and rivers of Ireland and Wales. By contrast, the vessel we see in-game is twin hulled (and those made from reed bundles) with a square sail on a single central mast. The only evidence for such vessels in very ancient times are those built by Polynesian cultures as early as 3000 BC. However, vessels of this type were clearly intended for open-ocean stability and thus are the exact opposite of the sort of ship that is restricted to coastal and beach terrains, which is their role in CtP2. Unfortunately there are only two "pre-Dynastic era" ancient naval unit sprites available (the other already utilized as the Bireme), so there's no obvious alternative. That said, the sprite is certainly NOT a coracle in any way, shape, or form!

                        3) Bireme: The second in-game vessel is the Bireme, and by definition it utilized a new form of technology which allowed for two banks of rowers. Once again we have a disconnect with the appearance of the sprite, which looks more like a bundle of reeds with a few oars protruding from the side and a central mast with an angled sail. The latter is a much later invention, and not really appropriate to a vessel of this period, and certainly not anything ever used by historical Biremes. Fortunately it's not all bad. The sprite has an upturned bow and stern plus a single bank of oars, providing at least a partial resemblance to the earliest historical galleys, but definitely not a Bireme.

                        4) Bireme Period: Cradle Biremes become available with the L2 Sails Advance and upgrade to the Longship with L8 Ocean Faring. That's a very long period of time, meaning that Biremes appear before the Dynasty gov-type and last until after Tribunal Empire. In reality, this was an intermediate ship-type which existed for a short historical period, and was largely replaced by the Trireme (City State-Oligarchy period).

                        5) Sails Advance: The Sail was certainly an important invention, but it did not lead to the Bireme, nor any of the earlier galley variants. Instead, the initial pre-requisite was the technology which enabled open-hulled Oared Galleys, leading to three different vessel types: The "Eikonter" (10 rowers per side), the "Trikonter" (15 per side) and eventually the "Pentekonter" (25 per side). The addition of a second level (which defines the Bireme), required a new Technology, the invention of the Outrigger. This placed the upper rowers in a supported outrigger structure which positioned the oars at different vertical and horizontal intervals, thus allowing for more powerful and coordinated strokes without a clashing of oars (see attached). The other new design element was to affix a ram to the front of the vessel. The greater power of the Bireme (and shorter length compared to the Pentekonter) allowed it to accelerate quickly and deliver a smashing blow to the hull of an opponent. The point of all this being that "Sails" had nothing to do with the invention of the Bireme much less the ability of oared galleys to transport men of war.

                        6) Trireme: As discussed in Post# 48, Cradle 5 features a modified Trireme sprite, a unit which becomes available with the L5 Map Making Advance. Unlike the historical Triremes, this unit does not upgrade from the Bireme, nor does it have any Land Unit transport capacity. Playtesting experience has shown the in-game Trireme to be a "less capable" version of the Quinquereme (available with L7 Hullmaking), except it can't upgrade to that unit. So it arrives at L5 and is effectively superseded by the Quinquereme at L7 but doesn't upgrade and instead it just hangs around until both units get the Dromon upgrade (L12). Historically that makes sense, since the Trireme and Quinquereme co-existed and ancient fleets often contained both unit types, but in-game there's simply no reason to keep building Triremes once the Quinquereme is available.

                        7) Carrack: As noted in the first item of this post, the Carrack (L10) isn't part of the "unit carrying ship sequence", so by the time you reach the early Middle Ages, Biremes are still being used (at least by the human player) since Carrack fleets have to be built from scratch and Biremes have double the carrying capacity of Longships. Accordingly, human navies are a strange mix of FIVE units (ship types that run the gamut from pre-Dynastic to Medieval periods) which historically never coexisted. The other major issue with the Carrack is that it becomes available immediately after "Dark Ages", whereas historically it appeared in the 14th Century. Definitely a problem.

                        8) Dromon Upgrade: The Quinquereme upgrades to the Dromon with the L12 Astrolabe Advance, but historically they were a very early Medieval Byzantine naval unit, first appearing @600 AD (in game terms that would be L10 or earlier). By delaying it to L12, that keeps the Quinquereme in action long after it became obsolete. Part of the problem is that Dromons also require the "Greek Fire" Advance, and that too is L12 whereas it also first appeared @700 AD. The Dromon itself upgrades to the Ship-of-the-Line, but that doesn't happen until the L16 Naval Tactics Advance, so again we have a ship that remains in game long after it was superseded by other types.

                        9) Ship-of-the-Line: In Cradle, the Ship-of-the-Line has a transport capacity of "1", but it upgrades from-and-to a pair of units that have a capacity of "0" (Dromon-L12 & Destroyer-L18), so again this can lead to the "disappearing unit" problem described in Item# 1 (above). Even worse however, it is linked to an Advance which allows the Ironclad to be researched out-of-sequence, meaning that Ironclads can be built before the Ship-of-the-Line. Clearly a problem.

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                        Last edited by Kull; Today, 13:54.
                        To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

                        From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

                        Comment

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