CtP2 vs. Civ 3 - a guide

[Solver]

Arrian,

I give the Civ 3 AI edit credit from my own experience. I've seen it use Transports to deliver troops effectively, and cover them properly, as well as use lethal bombardment effectively to stall naval invasions. In fully patched PTW, it also did use huge stacks of bombard units, so I speak from experience. Of course, it's not nearly as good as the human player in a fight.

Interesting though, how can you consider the worker system superior to Public Works? I realise that the Worker system isn't bad per se, but again, to play a powerful game in Civ 3, I create a lot of workers - and I can't help being extremely bored when I have to move a hundred of them around, while CtP2 PW is indeed boredom safe. If you have enough PW, it will take you 4 seconds to improve all area around a city, and then you don't worry about that.

Anyway, I'm very pleased you posted in this thread, being one of the most known Civ 3 players with great contributions to the community .

[TheArsenal]

Great work. Good balanced article. A few points:

I don’t believe I have ever seen the Civ 3 AI bring bombardment units forward in an attack. In my experience, it doesn’t produce a great deal of artillery at all. But this may be a byproduct of the level I play (Monarch) where the AI is only given a slight production bonus, if any. From what I’ve seen and read I think what Arrian said about overseas invasion has come to be common wisdom. The AI rarely, if ever, mounts a coordinates a naval invasion. It often trickles transports to your shore, which occasionally will carry only a unit or two. It is, however, good at moving many units across land, ending unit turns in good defensive positions, and picking off stragglers wounded in battle.

Also, one of the things I like about CtP2 diplomacy not mentioned above is the ability to strike different tones during negotiations – to bully when needed, or to be obsequious when faced with a much stronger power.

There is no question after a certain point workers, even automated, become a time wasting nuisance. But in all parts of the game prior to the late game, they definitely play a factor in strategic thinking. Including, the capturing of workers (slaves) from other civs, timing worker jobs with city build production, and the protection of workers from barbarians in the very early game. They’re burdensome sometimes, but add to the game – and I am someone who does not like MM.

The trade model in Civ 3 might be somewhat better, but the fact that it is impossible to determine what those trade routes are, is not. The ability to see and therefore pirate trade routes in CtP2 is a factor missing from Civ 3. On the ground at least, all strategic concerns over trade – protecting the trade routes – are removed. It’s a shame. With Civ 3’s strategic resource model, this would add all manner of tactical depth to the game.

Whether or not one likes the other stealth units in the game (I’m not fond of lawyers, for example), the espionage system in CtP2 is far, far better. I prefer less abstract model and enjoy moving spies across enemy lines. At least for me, there is very little question as to whether or not to build spies. The great debate with Civ3 is it even worth it at all considering individual spying missions are expensive and failure is prone to cause war.

They are both great, but flawed, games, IMO. As I play them both, I find them to be quite different. I’ve always felt it was a matter of mood rather than an either or situation. I have been playing a more Civ 3 lately, largely due to the rapid fire output of expansions – the latest, Conquests, I find quite fun.

In the perfect world, I would just combine the two game into one ultimate Civ.

Looking forward to see what comes out of the source code project.

[Solver]

TheArsenal,

Oh, of course there are many things that I left out about CtP2, minor details such as diplomacy tones and such - those aren't the only good things. Also, the diplomacy model is, as you know, enhanced by the fact that other civs not only have a level of regard towards you, but also a level of trust, which are different things.

Yes, Civ 3 workers require some strategic planning, but as you agree, become a pain later. However, the amount of strategic planning that the PW system requires is no less than what workers require - because you need to know when to make a lot of PW, but you have to balance it properly so that you don't fall behind in production, etc.

True, both games are good, and somewhat flawed, though CtP2 is less flawed, IMO, as the core gameplay system is better. But it's easy to see that CtP2 absolutely shines in areas such as espionage. Civ 3 espionage... sigh... don't get me started on it... money's very important, and it's expensive, with a high failure rate, possibly war-provoking... no, no.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm, interesting.
Personally, given that I actually *like* workers, the public works system didn't appeal to me. I did try CtP1, but took it back after a day or two. I've never tried CtP2.

As pointed out, the PW system's main benefit is that as the game proceeds, the effort required to manage TI construction is a lot less than the worker system. That, to me, is the main plus to it.

I actually like the concepts of a worker-based system, but am frustrated by a lack of effective means to manage the workers once you get a lot of them. I would love a lock-stack feature (similar to Armies) incorporated into civ3. The group movement command helps, but is offset by the fact that a player still has to issue a build command to each unit in the stack.

Put that feature in and I would have no preference as to which is the best.

Originally posted by Arrian
The "unconventional" stuff doesn't appeal to me at all, either.

The nice thing about the unconventionals is that it is so easy to mod them out of the game. In CTP2, simply open the units.txt file and add the entry

CantBuild

to each of the entries you do not want in the game. Takes 5 minutes, max...

Originally posted by Arrian
I think you gave the CivIII AI too much credit regarding its warfighting abilities, Solver. I love CivIII, and I think the AI is pretty good all things considered (at least the AI in fully-patched PTW... Conquests has issues...how to mount an effective intercontinental invasion...

The thing is, we are comparing the two setups rather than how well each game does on its own merit. Both setups really can do better in this regard.

IMO, the overall AI military focus in civ3 is better than the CTP2 setup (even CTP2 in its modded state). The civ3 AI is much better than the CTP2 setup in launching amphibeous assaults, and it is more coordinated - Alliances, both AI/AI and human/AI have more bite in civ3.

However, the gap between the modded CTP2 and civ3 Conquests is really not that large regarding AI proficiency.

Ultimately, I prefer the CTP2 setup - it feels more intuitive to me because of stacked/combined arms combat. And all things considered, it is certainly no pushover in the modded state (I tend to play on huge continental landmasses in CTP2 because of the inherent weakness in sea combat)

Originally posted by Arrian
but the AI hasn't a CLUE how to use bombard units

CTP2 has a counterbombard flag that activates a unit with Bombard capabilities if it is part of a stack that is bombarded - it will automatically fire back. Very nice...

And one nice thing I have observed in my current CTP2 game is an AI force that parked a 12 stack outside of one of my cities, bombarded it for 4 turns and then proceeded to take it with an assault.

[Solver]

Very good points Hex. True, CtP2 war AI still lacks somewhat in good coordination or military focus, but it can still wage war effectively. And it does actually use whatever bombard units it has, either to weaken a city, or always to counter-bombard.

Another reason why I prefer PW over workers is that it helps make the seas important. Fisheries are a great source of food, and yet one enemy ship could come and pillage it all - so you're always forced to patrol your coastline.

[Andydog]

A most interesting thread Solver.

I started off with Civ2, then went onto the CtP series for a short while – I stopped playing that because of the bugs and bad AI. I also really enjoy multiplayer and CtP2 was so buggy it was pretty much impossible.

One thing you didn’t mention was that the civilisations in Civ3 each have two attributes – the attributes being Commercial (income bonuses), Seafaring (sea bonuses), Militaristic (combat bonuses), industrious (worker and production bonuses), religious (culture bonuses), expansionist (exploration bonuses), agricultural (growth bonuses), and scientific (research bonuses). Each civilisation also gets a unique unit that is more powerful than their standard equivalent (for example, the Romans, being a commercial militaristic civ, get Legionnaires instead of swordsmen, Legionaries having extra defence. When a unique unit is victorious in battle, your civ enters into a Golden Age, where your production and gold are greatly increased for 20 turns.

These additions add a new strategic dimension to the game that I really like, certainly it’s a major difference to CtP and worthy of mentioning.

Having said that, I do agree that stacked combat is VASTLY superior to Civ3’s combat system, and I much preferred the public works system to pissing about with workers. Yes workers are fun in the very early game, but they quickly become a pain in the arse. A game should never be tedious, and unfortunately there is too much of this in Civ3.

I was aware of the source code project but when I visited the forums there was no thread (that I could see) that nicely summarises the current position of the project, and there was nowhere (that I could see) where you could download the latest ‘source code project patch’.

So I stuck with Civ3.

How far advanced is the source code project? Has it introduced anything new or only fixed bugs? Is there somewhere where I can download one convenient patch that includes all the recommended mods (cradle etc) and the latest source code project changes?

If there is, and it’s all nice and simple, then I’ll definitely give CtP another go!

[bartdanr]

Thanks for the guide, Solver.

I didn't notice a discussion on Unique Units, but correct me if I'm wrong: wouldn't it be possible to mod such a feature in CTP2?

[hexagonian]

I believe WesW added civ-specific unique units in his Med Mod - and there are also unique units available to the player that are related to government choices in the unmodded game (For instance, choose Fascism and you get access to the Fascist unit, choose Theocracy and you get the Cleric - and this is usually expanded upon in all of the Mods)

In terms of gameplay, this is not much different than civ-specific units.

[Solver]

Yes, in MedMod, there are various unique units. It is, in fact, possible to mod in civ-specific units and abilities in CtP2, and has been done in some mods.

I was aware of the source code project but when I visited the forums there was no thread (that I could see) that nicely summarises the current position of the project, and there was nowhere (that I could see) where you could download the latest ‘source code project patch’.

So I stuck with Civ3.

How far advanced is the source code project? Has it introduced anything new or only fixed bugs? Is there somewhere where I can download one convenient patch that includes all the recommended mods (cradle etc) and the latest source code project changes?

The project has currently fixed the major bugs for singeplayer, and all mods work under it now. There are no new feautures per se, but that's work that's handled excellently in mods such as Cradle or MedMod.

Here are some links you may want to check out:

Playest thread - this is te playest thread, where the latest playtest build is posted regularly. This is the current build.

The Directory - this is where you can get MedMod, Cradle, Modswapper and others, whichever you please.

Another thread with nice links and comments on the mods.

Unfortunately, the multiplayer aspect still isn't working as well as we would like it to, but you can definitely have a good go in single player!

[Jon Shafer]

Good read.

Though I'll have to agree with Arrian in that the Civ 3 AI is not keen on most military matters. Naval invasions are definitely not its strong point and I've only seen it use bombardment units (1 unit by itself) offensively 2 or 3 times in three years of playing Civ 3 on a regular basis.

Also, your statement about not being able to mod Civ 3's graphics is also false. I've modded just about everything possible in my game, from terrain to units to resources to the interface and more.

PW rocks!

[Solver]

Hmm, strange I posted that. I certainly know that terrain and some other graphics can and has been modified... uhmm! Though well, CtP2 makes any modding easier . One can even change the interface elements at wish...

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Solver
Hmm, strange I posted that. I certainly know that terrain and some other graphics can and has been modified... uhmm! Though well, CtP2 makes any modding easier . One can even change the interface elements at wish...

No question there.

I wish Civ 3 (and Firaxis) had a more mod-friendly attitude, but Civ is designed for the mainstream, so there's not much anyone can do about that.

[Solver]

I beg to differ. Civ, per se, isn't a mainstream game. Counterstrike is, Warcraft is, but Civ is a game designed for the other sort of gamers. Yes, it sells very well and many buy it, but only a very small fraction become players as hardcore as we do.

[Jon Shafer]

Games (especially sequals) that aren't mainstream don't start and stay on the top 10 selling list for 6 months.

[TheArsenal]

I know nothing about games sales. What do those 6 months translate to in units sold?