CtP2 vs. Civ 3 - a guide

[Solver]

Very good points Hex. True, CtP2 war AI still lacks somewhat in good coordination or military focus, but it can still wage war effectively. And it does actually use whatever bombard units it has, either to weaken a city, or always to counter-bombard.

Another reason why I prefer PW over workers is that it helps make the seas important. Fisheries are a great source of food, and yet one enemy ship could come and pillage it all - so you're always forced to patrol your coastline.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm, interesting.
Personally, given that I actually *like* workers, the public works system didn't appeal to me. I did try CtP1, but took it back after a day or two. I've never tried CtP2.

As pointed out, the PW system's main benefit is that as the game proceeds, the effort required to manage TI construction is a lot less than the worker system. That, to me, is the main plus to it.

I actually like the concepts of a worker-based system, but am frustrated by a lack of effective means to manage the workers once you get a lot of them. I would love a lock-stack feature (similar to Armies) incorporated into civ3. The group movement command helps, but is offset by the fact that a player still has to issue a build command to each unit in the stack.

Put that feature in and I would have no preference as to which is the best.

Originally posted by Arrian
The "unconventional" stuff doesn't appeal to me at all, either.

The nice thing about the unconventionals is that it is so easy to mod them out of the game. In CTP2, simply open the units.txt file and add the entry

CantBuild

to each of the entries you do not want in the game. Takes 5 minutes, max...

Originally posted by Arrian
I think you gave the CivIII AI too much credit regarding its warfighting abilities, Solver. I love CivIII, and I think the AI is pretty good all things considered (at least the AI in fully-patched PTW... Conquests has issues...how to mount an effective intercontinental invasion...

The thing is, we are comparing the two setups rather than how well each game does on its own merit. Both setups really can do better in this regard.

IMO, the overall AI military focus in civ3 is better than the CTP2 setup (even CTP2 in its modded state). The civ3 AI is much better than the CTP2 setup in launching amphibeous assaults, and it is more coordinated - Alliances, both AI/AI and human/AI have more bite in civ3.

However, the gap between the modded CTP2 and civ3 Conquests is really not that large regarding AI proficiency.

Ultimately, I prefer the CTP2 setup - it feels more intuitive to me because of stacked/combined arms combat. And all things considered, it is certainly no pushover in the modded state (I tend to play on huge continental landmasses in CTP2 because of the inherent weakness in sea combat)

Originally posted by Arrian
but the AI hasn't a CLUE how to use bombard units

CTP2 has a counterbombard flag that activates a unit with Bombard capabilities if it is part of a stack that is bombarded - it will automatically fire back. Very nice...

And one nice thing I have observed in my current CTP2 game is an AI force that parked a 12 stack outside of one of my cities, bombarded it for 4 turns and then proceeded to take it with an assault.

[Solver]

TheArsenal,

Oh, of course there are many things that I left out about CtP2, minor details such as diplomacy tones and such - those aren't the only good things. Also, the diplomacy model is, as you know, enhanced by the fact that other civs not only have a level of regard towards you, but also a level of trust, which are different things.

Yes, Civ 3 workers require some strategic planning, but as you agree, become a pain later. However, the amount of strategic planning that the PW system requires is no less than what workers require - because you need to know when to make a lot of PW, but you have to balance it properly so that you don't fall behind in production, etc.

True, both games are good, and somewhat flawed, though CtP2 is less flawed, IMO, as the core gameplay system is better. But it's easy to see that CtP2 absolutely shines in areas such as espionage. Civ 3 espionage... sigh... don't get me started on it... money's very important, and it's expensive, with a high failure rate, possibly war-provoking... no, no.

[TheArsenal]

Great work. Good balanced article. A few points:

I don’t believe I have ever seen the Civ 3 AI bring bombardment units forward in an attack. In my experience, it doesn’t produce a great deal of artillery at all. But this may be a byproduct of the level I play (Monarch) where the AI is only given a slight production bonus, if any. From what I’ve seen and read I think what Arrian said about overseas invasion has come to be common wisdom. The AI rarely, if ever, mounts a coordinates a naval invasion. It often trickles transports to your shore, which occasionally will carry only a unit or two. It is, however, good at moving many units across land, ending unit turns in good defensive positions, and picking off stragglers wounded in battle.

Also, one of the things I like about CtP2 diplomacy not mentioned above is the ability to strike different tones during negotiations – to bully when needed, or to be obsequious when faced with a much stronger power.

There is no question after a certain point workers, even automated, become a time wasting nuisance. But in all parts of the game prior to the late game, they definitely play a factor in strategic thinking. Including, the capturing of workers (slaves) from other civs, timing worker jobs with city build production, and the protection of workers from barbarians in the very early game. They’re burdensome sometimes, but add to the game – and I am someone who does not like MM.

The trade model in Civ 3 might be somewhat better, but the fact that it is impossible to determine what those trade routes are, is not. The ability to see and therefore pirate trade routes in CtP2 is a factor missing from Civ 3. On the ground at least, all strategic concerns over trade – protecting the trade routes – are removed. It’s a shame. With Civ 3’s strategic resource model, this would add all manner of tactical depth to the game.

Whether or not one likes the other stealth units in the game (I’m not fond of lawyers, for example), the espionage system in CtP2 is far, far better. I prefer less abstract model and enjoy moving spies across enemy lines. At least for me, there is very little question as to whether or not to build spies. The great debate with Civ3 is it even worth it at all considering individual spying missions are expensive and failure is prone to cause war.

They are both great, but flawed, games, IMO. As I play them both, I find them to be quite different. I’ve always felt it was a matter of mood rather than an either or situation. I have been playing a more Civ 3 lately, largely due to the rapid fire output of expansions – the latest, Conquests, I find quite fun.

In the perfect world, I would just combine the two game into one ultimate Civ.

Looking forward to see what comes out of the source code project.

[Solver]

Arrian,

I give the Civ 3 AI edit credit from my own experience. I've seen it use Transports to deliver troops effectively, and cover them properly, as well as use lethal bombardment effectively to stall naval invasions. In fully patched PTW, it also did use huge stacks of bombard units, so I speak from experience. Of course, it's not nearly as good as the human player in a fight.

Interesting though, how can you consider the worker system superior to Public Works? I realise that the Worker system isn't bad per se, but again, to play a powerful game in Civ 3, I create a lot of workers - and I can't help being extremely bored when I have to move a hundred of them around, while CtP2 PW is indeed boredom safe. If you have enough PW, it will take you 4 seconds to improve all area around a city, and then you don't worry about that.

Anyway, I'm very pleased you posted in this thread, being one of the most known Civ 3 players with great contributions to the community .

[Arrian]

Hmm, interesting.

Personally, given that I actually *like* workers, the public works system didn't appeal to me. I did try CtP1, but took it back after a day or two. I've never tried CtP2. The "unconventional" stuff doesn't appeal to me at all, either.

I think you gave the CivIII AI too much credit regarding its warfighting abilities, Solver. I love CivIII, and I think the AI is pretty good all things considered (at least the AI in fully-patched PTW... Conquests has issues), but the AI hasn't a CLUE how to use bombard units, or how to mount an effective intercontinental invasion.

-Arrian

[Solver]

This is definitely not true. Some great games have been developed by Activision (the CtP series being the most notable of course -- but there are many others). It has a history going back to the days of the Atari. To call it the Blizzard of the '80s is probably going too far but they were once a great developing house. In recent years it's true that they only publish though, but only in recent years (pretty much since the release of CtP2 -- no, those events are not related ).

True, those oldies sort of slipped my memory for the moment.

This passage is wrong. You seem to suggest that the front rows continue fighting until all units on one of the two front rows are gone and only then the back row fires again. In reality, the front rows fight for 1 round, then the back rows attack again, then the front rows fight again, etc. This continues until a front row unit dies, at which point he's replaced by one of the backrow units. This continues again until all units of one side are dead or the attacker retreats.

Of course. Interestingly, though, the way I said it (wrongly), is also mentioned somewhere - wasn't it the CtP1 or 2 manual, perhaps? I'll edit my post to reflect that, though - a pretty silly error.

I'm still working out a way to merge this guide with the stuff already topped (there are too many topped threads already so we'll have to find a way to combine it all), but don't really see a good way of doing it. Will let you know when I do (suggestions welcome).

Nothing much to suggest for the moment except for what I had already said on ICQ, if there was anything sensible at all.

[Immortal Wombat]

Put a link from the FAQ: Which is better Civ3 or CtP2? Is it worth owning both? What are the differences between them, etc? Words to that effect?

And untop the year old SP Tourney thread too

[Locutus]

Finally got around to reading it all. Basically I like it, but two points of criticism:

a company that’s mainly known for publishing games, not making them

This is definitely not true. Some great games have been developed by Activision (the CtP series being the most notable of course -- but there are many others). It has a history going back to the days of the Atari. To call it the Blizzard of the '80s is probably going too far but they were once a great developing house. In recent years it's true that they only publish though, but only in recent years (pretty much since the release of CtP2 -- no, those events are not related ).

Then, the front rows fight. The back rows don’t fire till either front row is completely eliminated. Blue units are clearly superior, so the pink front row gets eliminated – at which point half of the back row will go forward to form a front row – the back rows attack again, and the battle continues like that.

This passage is wrong. You seem to suggest that the front rows continue fighting until all units on one of the two front rows are gone and only then the back row fires again. In reality, the front rows fight for 1 round, then the back rows attack again, then the front rows fight again, etc. This continues until a front row unit dies, at which point he's replaced by one of the backrow units. This continues again until all units of one side are dead or the attacker retreats.


I'm still working out a way to merge this guide with the stuff already topped (there are too many topped threads already so we'll have to find a way to combine it all), but don't really see a good way of doing it. Will let you know when I do (suggestions welcome).

[Solver]

You always have to appreciate praise from those who believe you to write good things without even knowing what is it that you write .

[Ãskallin]

Looks great solver (Although i didn't bother to read through ot all!!)

[Solver]

Hey vondrack, I sure remember you by your Civ 3 posts!

The good news are... a new playtest build for CtP2 was released by source code project yesterday, and as far as I've tried, it seems to support the mods completely. So, you can also play with that playtest build, which will also get you bugfixes for the most annoying bugs, etc. Also, it improves greatly as to game stability and similar.

[vondrack]

This is probably my first post in the CtP forum here... but I went to read your article thanks to the shameless plug posted in the Civ3 forum...

Excellent reading, Solver, thanks a ton!

After reading your summary, I might even give CtP2 another try one day (I have already given it two tries, but failed both times - I was not even able to run the damn thing). Some of the features look really interesting.

Thanks again!

[Solver]

Thanks Tamerlin, I may add that at some point. I considered putting it in, but somehow dismissed as being subjective somewhat, but maybe it deserves a mention.

[Tamerlin]

Excellent work Solver...

I would have pointed out somewhere that one of the stronger point of CtP2 is that because the micromanagement has been reduced you really have the feeling to manage an empire.