AI & Diplomacy stuff...

[Nordicus]

Wes:
Like the idea, the new cost, and the veteran ability.
The new spy unit is a great idea. I like EKM's suggestions (thanks) regarding enabling advance and name, as well as the lowered success rate--might just be a "raw" spy version.

Don:
Yeah, most of this would have to be copied in the new one:

############## special flags #############################
MOVEMENT_TYPE_LAND
MOVEMENT_TYPE_MOUNTAIN
LOSS_MOVE_TO_DMG_NONE
SIZE_SMALL

CANT_CAPTURE_CITY

VISIBILITY_CLASS_5

VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_0
VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_4
VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_5


CANT_ENTRENCH
CANT_PATROL
IS_SPECIAL_FORCES
IGNORE_ZOC
HAS_NO_ZOC
CAN_BE_EXPELLED


DEFEND_AGAINST_SPIES 0.25

INVESTIGATE_CITY 0.75 0.1 0.5
STEAL_TECHNOLOGY 0.5 0.25 0.5 SOUND_ID_STEAL_TECHNOLOGY_SP SPECEFFECT_STEAL_TECHNOLOGY
INCITE_REVOLUTION 0.4 0.25 0.5 SOUND_ID_INCITE_REVOLUTION_SP SPECEFFECT_INCITE_REVOLUTION
PLANT_NUKE 0.25 0.25 SOUND_ID_PLANT_NUKE_SP SPECEFFECT_NUKE
SPACE_CITY_CAN_BUILD
CHEAT_INDEX 5
}

### UNIT DONE30 ###

As for the three numbers there...unsure. I think only the first needs changing, though.


Hex:
Agreed. And it is a tad too pricy too.
The mod was built on top of CD's framework, so there's no conflict of course. Some had to be altered, but the main improvements are still there.
About the govs...not sure. I'd love to see that, but I have no experience there. I'll leave that up to Wes, since he's been through set_govern.fli and so on. Doesn't seem too difficult, but that's easy for me to say since I'm ignorant
Thanks for the suggestions.



------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"I always wake up angry, cuz I always wake up me..."--Ministry.

"Ak ak-ak-ak ak, AK ak-ak, AK AKakak AK!"--Martian.

[Nordicus]

Hey, people...

I included all recent changes in the above list, including the Barbarian alterations. Think I'll stick all these in a different thread too, since they're kinda getting burried in here.

[WesW]

I will put this new unit in my Medieval mod 2, along with the spy unit alterations mentioned above. What we need now is someone to modify a sprite for the new unit. I will post something when I have decided no the specifics of the unit's stats, and let you put in final recommendations.

[Nordicus]

Wes:

Hey, sounds good. As far as the sprite thing goes, I dunno. I've never done one (so this a warning of a stupid idea coming ), but can't a guy use the Spy sprite? I dunno, maybe copy it and change the number? *shrug*
Just a thought, such as it is.

[gemini]

Hi WesW

I would be happy to make the sprite. A couple problems though. There is no way to decompile sprites for alterations. That leaves a couple ways to go. First is to take screen shots of the sprite you want and modify it that way. Another method is to find some sort of model in 3d format. Age of empires has some graphics too that may be usefull and there are programs out there that can retrieve the grapics from that game. Also I was mucking around in the test of time cd and noticed that the graphics format for units is also sprites I'm not sure if they are compatable but it may be worth a try. Although people have complained about the quality of the units for test of time.

For me it is alot easier to get 3d models cause there is less touching up to do. Also it would most likely have to be unanimated cos for 3d people models the program I have wouldn't be able to animated any kind of walking and arm movement.

Just a thought too but harlan or morgoth could also help you. Not sure if they hang around here much though.

------------------
Gemini

[skorpion59]

Nordicus or Wes,

I tried stealing tech with a Noble in the game I just started. It cost $2000 and I didn't get the technology. I even went for the random tech which is supposed to have a higher chance of success. Is there a way to lower the cost? I don't think many people can afford to throw $2000 away multiple times in the early part of a game.

Don

[WesW]

Don, the 2,000 gold is a problem. I searched, and couldn't find a setting for that anywhere. It isn't in the unit text, and doesn't appear to be in the const text, either. If we can't lower this, there is not much use in having the unit.

------------------
Yeah, can you believe it. I got wiped out on chieftain. -Don Blevens (aka Scorpion59)
"Remember Salzburg!" -Austrian Premiere

[Paul]

Cost to steal technology is in order.txt

[Nordicus]

Gemini:
Hey, just emailed you. How's things?
Not sure if the format is compatible or not--don't have that or Civ2 for the PC. I wonder what the AI code looks like for Civ2?
Would the sprites be compatible also?

Have had no luck finding good naval vessel models I'm afraid


Don:
Very good point. I agree.

Wes:
Paul is right (thanks Paul), it's in order.txt, before the sound IDs--the trouble is that

{ ORDER_STEAL_TECHNOLOGY 2000 100 SOUND_ID_GENERALFAIL SOUND_ID_GENERALSUCCEED }

there is only one. One for each unit attempting to steal, so of course if you lower it accommodate the noble, the cost will be the same for a "secret agent" or spy unit. So, I guess one has to decide upon a common, generic value to suit all types. Maybe keep it low, I dunno, 750 or something, and merely adjust the chance of success per unit?
Whatcha think?

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"Why sell a man what he wants? Sell 'em what he doesn't need, pretend he's got eight legs and two stomachs and money to burn. It's wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!"--"Allie Fox."

"Remember Salzburg!"

[Nordicus]

Side tangent here--anyone know (or guess) what the numbers here (in pollution.txt) mean?:

POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_SMALL_MAP
{
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 90000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 135000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 180000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 330000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve
}

POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_MEDIUM_MAP
{
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 135000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 315000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 550000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve
}

POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_LARGE_MAP
{
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 315000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 495000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 585000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve
}

POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_GIGANTIC_MAP
{
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 270000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 495000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 585000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 675000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER
POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve
}

[gemini]

Nordicus,
Ya I'm kind of interested to see if the units are compatible. I'll probably try it on the weekend or something.

------------------
Gemini

[WesW]

There are several ways we could go with this.
We could leave the 2,000 gold alone, and give the early version a 100% success rate. Maybe make it cheap, and a one-time use unit, like a cruise missle. Or any combination of the above.
I think I will add this to my poll thread about the cleric and interceptor. (I haven't gotten any opinions there yet, so everyone interested will see this, too.)

[skorpion59]

Wes,
I like your cheap, one-time idea if it could be implemented.

Nordicus,
That is the amount of pollution points required to trigger the next disaster. (Flood turns land to water and ozone turns productive tiles into dead tiles.) For example, a base city puts out 15 points by itself. 30 cities putting out 15 points gives 450 points. 8 civs putting out 450 points gives 3600 points. On a large map, producing 3600 points per turn means the first disaster will occur in 62.5 years. The next disaster will occur 25 years later. So what, you say. No big deal. Well it is. Build a couple improvements and the city puts out 150 points x 30 cities x 8 civs and you get 36,000 points per turn. First disaster now takes 6.25 turns, second takes 2.5 turns more. This can be on the low side of common. My last game that totally melted down was producing over 500 points per city per turn. 500 points x 30 cities x 8 civs gives 120,000 points per turn. First disaster takes 1.8 turns, second takes less than 1 turn. And that is precisely what happened. Within 5 turns, my nice productive world melted down to nothing. In addition to all this, once your city hits 100 points per turn, it has a chance of producing additional ozone damage within its own radius. Which, of course, add to the overall global damage.

Obviously, there is a lot of variables here. It all depends on how many polluters your city builds and how many cleaners you also build. In my meltdown game, my Civ actually produced very little pollution, even though I had more polluters because I built all the cleaners. Your games with 12 or 16 Civs would get hit even harder.

What I wonder is does this mean you can only have 5 disasters and I just got them all in 5 consecutive turns or can it keep going up to the last number?

Don

[Nordicus]

Don:
I was not aware of that. Interesting. This is obviously geared towards 8 civs only--I can't imagine the hell on earth with 29! OMG! No, this has to be adjusted for more players--not for our mod, though, unless it's clearly stated that it's for over 8 players. There ought to be one for 8-16 players and one for 16-32, as well.
Any other thoughts?

Gemini:
Sounds good. Lemme know how that goes.

Wes:
Still savin up for those glasses No, I totally missed the other thread, sorry. I'll go there after this.
The idea is good. As long as it's balanced one way or the other, I'm not worried. As far as the one-time use thing goes, I think this is all that defines that:

SINGLE_USE

In special flags. Pretty straightforward, huh?

I don't think a separate sprite is needed (thanks for the offer anyway, Gemini)--here, this is from the 'noble' unit:

DEFAULT_SPRITE SPRITE_DIPLOMAT
DEFAULT_ICON ICON_UNIT_NOBLE
DESCRIPTION DESCRIPTION_UNIT_DIPLOMAT

I presume a guy could do this for the spy, hey?

Anyway, off to check the other thread.

[Morgoth]

Gemini : Yes, I'm still around - just more of a silent watcher at the moment.

Regarding the spy unit - what thoughts of period/costume do you want for the spy?

I might be able to do something this weekend so let me know your thoughts on this ASAP.