design versus coding

[Velociryx]

...we're still here!

A traditional software company, doing a game with a full time, dedicated staff, takes ~5 years to bring a game full cycle.

We:

* Are volunteer based, doing this mostly in our free time

* Got hacked some two years in, and lost a good chunk of our work (basically had to start from scratch)

* Were completely new to all this when we started, and have been learning as we go

Don't get your panties in a twist. I can't help it if you refused my earlier offer.



-=Vel=-

[Dinner]

+1.

[Chuckman]

As someone who has a bit of experience in retail book selling I am going to step in here.

Yes the vast majority of people who self publish ultimately sell anywhere from a few to a few hundred copies primarily to family and friends. There are alternatives to traditional publishing houses for new authors willing to put in the work to successfully publish. (By successfully publish I mean turn a profit.) Allow me to give some examples:

Brunonia Barry of Massachusetts self published her first novel "The Lace Reader." Through significant work and investment ($50,000) on her part she was able to parlay her initial investment into a $2,000,000+ book deal with William Morrow.

Zane, author of urban fiction, self published her first three novels. She has since been picked up by Simon & Schuster. I believe she now has over a dozen titles in print and in most metropolitan bookstores she has about 1 to 4 feet of shelf space dedicated to her.

The first book of Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy "Eragon" was self published.

These three examples are all situations where a new author initially self published and then was picked up by an established publishing house.

It is also possible to successfully self publish in a niche market. My example for this is "Rosalie's Guide to Restaurants in the North End of Boston" published by Rosalie and Jim Masella. This title is updated every year and they sell a few thousand copies each year in the greater Boston area.

To dismiss all who self publish is unreasonable.

[TCO]

I'm not dismissing all. Just like some people win betting at Vegas. But it's a suckers bet. And the odds are way worse than the slots.

[snoopy369]

That was a cool thread, TCO (at Asimov's) ... Gardner Dozois starting a thread to find you reading material ...

[Nugog]

Originally posted by TCO
I don't want to hurt your feelings

Then - if you really mean this - PM him your email addy - read the book/s and PM him your opinion - and publically keep your opinion to yourself.

Vel is open to true and honest criticism - if that is what you are offering.

[PLATO]

Vel

[Velociryx]

I agree Snoopy....the thread that TCO referenced over at Azimov's is a great reader resource indeed! (and I suspect that the whole forum over there is likewise!)

And thank you Nugog and Plato for offering your support as well! So far, everyone who has read the books has given them high marks (Plato and Snoopy, btw...if either of you wanna join the editorial club and get the chance to beat me over the head with any mistakes you find in the work, there's still space...just shoot me a PM)

TCO....with great respect...I think it's time to put up or shut up, no? You've asked for a peek...we're offering it to you....take it, or no, but IF no, then enough with the complaints.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

At the end of the day, it's not about monetary success though.

I keep trying to beat that through your thick skull, TCO, but the message just won't make it through.

Hate to break it to you partnero, but there's more to life than a fat bank account, and many more motivations for doing any given thing.

I write because I love to.

Pure and simple.

It's like breathing.

I couldn't stop if you asked me to, and you know what? I'm willing to bet that the love of it makes me better at it than I otherwise would be.

You want proof? I've already said I'm willing to send it your direction.

You don't need the CEO of a publishing house to tell you what's good or bad, do you?

Surely you're capable of drawing your own conclusions.

Or...maybe you do. That would be...disappointing if it were so, but I'm willing to allow for the possibility.

If they (the books) make money, that's great.

An afterthought, but great just the same.

I would have written them anyway, and the best part...they're still mine!

I didn't have to sell out and lose two years of my life for midlist contract of a few thousand bucks and 3% for the rights to MY work.

But there's that whole "something besides the money" thing that you can't quite seem to fathom.

A shame.

-=Vel=-

(offer still stands, btw)

[Velociryx]

And Chuckman...

-=Vel=-

[snoopy369]

I agree that the odds of being monetarily successful self-publishing is very long indeed. If you don't care about the money, then do it If you care about the money, or about being a 'successful writer' in the sense of having your books in bookstores etc., don't.

The main problem with self publishing, in most cases, is that it is largely people who can't get published through normal means, but believe they've written 'the best book ever' and just need to get it into a bookstore. They're trapped by the folks who run vanity presses and the 'agents' who demand money to represent them, and give them squat except a book that cost them a fortune ($50k or more often) and no return. They don't want to put in the work doing the little things writers do first - write shorts for magazines, attend conventions and get to know the people who do write for a living, etc. - and just want to write a novel and have it published.

So - my advice is: as long as you don't use a 'vanity press' (ie, a real self publishing book company who prints actual books) nor an agent, you're fine. Write your novel, put it in PDFs and distribute it widely. Don't expect to become a novelist who is published in bookstores this way, but do expect to have some fun along the way

If you actually want to become a professional novelist, I can suggest a few places to start (also having several years in the book industry).

My brother, unfortunately, was in the group of people I described above, and of course being my brother didn't heed my advice on this... so i'm a bit touchy on the agents and vanity presses side of things

[Dale]

Hmm...... weren't Stardock arrogant upstarts with lots of criticism too? Just like Vel? Oh wait, didn't they do your favourite game TCO?

You go Vel!

And TCO, either put your money where your mouth is and read the book, or piss off.

[TCO]

I don't WANT a peek at the damn books. I think the books are a distraction. I think the whole Candle Bre thing and your whole attitude are skewed. You say you are going to fund things by real estate speculation (gaming and RE have NO synergy). Now, you want to have some multi-media release as if this were Harry Potter or soemthing. But you don't even have success as either a gamer or a writer. In both cases, you are completely amateur. You're not GOOD ENOUGH to get someone to pay you for this stuff, so you self publish. You';re not good enough to get a job game designing, so you start your own company. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but it's the elephant in the room.

[TCO]

Stardock were much further. Their dude has a clue. heck, I showed Vel the articles that guy had written!

[TCO]

I'm the one who put Poly and Stardock together.