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  • Diplomatic GUI

    OK, so I am still in the process of coding the backbone of the diplmatic system, and have much work to do before I get to the GUI, but I think it would be good to discuss how we imagine the thing working.

    According to the Methodology of Contact section of the diplomacy model, there would be several ways to contact an opponent civ. And since nobody ever mentioned that part (in either approving or criticising manner), I assume that people generally agree that system would be good.

    What I want you, people, to ponder is what happens after the contact is established. How should the process of discussing a treaty, for instance (or, for more current purposes, the process of discussing the change of diplomatic state) be visually represented? Well, declaring war is easy in some sense - you can attack a player with whom you have peace, and there you have it. But there should be clearly some kind of visual representation of the interaction between the player and the AI civ's for other, more advanced, actions.

    There are basically two ways to do that:
    1. A sort of bargain-table interface - as in Civ3 (which I happen to like a lot)

    2. A sort of dialogue-based interface - more like SMAC. This is a little less streamlined and intuitive, IMO, but some people like it more.

    If you happen to like either of those, or maybe have an idea of your own, please express it here.
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  • #2
    1 sounds better to me, but I have to admit I haven't played Civ3 so I haven't seen the table-top bargaining in action.
    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
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    • #3
      Table-top.

      It may lack the character and "fun" feel of the dialouge trees, but it more than makes up for it in flexibility of deals and ease of use.

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      • #4
        I like CtP2's way, but know neither SMAC nor Civ3 . (MOM was poor, and civ2 pitiful).
        I'd like to see how GalCiv handles it, someone said their model was nice.
        For those who don't know CtP2, you have 3 tabs on the left part of the screen:
        Give, request, treaty, you can more or less chose one from each, and the corresponding dialogue appears in the right part of the window.
        I'd like something like this, where I can "shop" in a list of options in one part of the interface, and see it clearly in another part (kind of what you do if you go on Amazon.com: you buy a cart of books, I buy a cart of diplomatic options). It could be tabs, or a tree view or whatever else.

        The important points are:
        I want to be able to adjust any parameter at any time, i.e. no going back to change an attitude from cordial to hostile, then having to select all the options again because I made a mistake in step 1 (including selecting the bad civ).

        Another very important point is the bargaining when your opponent refuses.
        You should have options easily accessed like change proposal (or make counter proposal), threaten, forget it.
        Clash of Civilization team member
        (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
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        • #5
          Let the diplomatic status screen be the same as the "bargaining screen". Just make the changes you want, and immediately see the change in relationship for each change you make. If you think the proposal will be accepted, click the button "issue proposal" (which appears as soon as you have made any change). If the proposal is accepted, everything is applied as you have changed it, if it is rejected, everything is reset. Note that some changes, like a declaration of war, cannot be rejected. All the changes would either be accepted or rejected as one.
          This allows for negotiating fine-tuned treaties and would be the simplest interface.

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          • #6
            and immediately see the change in relationship for each change you make
            I am not sure what you mean. If this is supposed to tell you how the quixotic leader of Mingatopia civ will likely answer your request, I'd rather not have it. I want to know the reaction only when I have actually made a proposal. This gives some thrill to diplomacy. I liked the fact that in civ2 ToT you never knew how the ai would react when you sent an ambassador (makes for really challenging OCC games).
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            • #7
              Well, since a lot of you here haven't seen how the bargain table works, I'll providea little screenshot from civ3:



              As you can see, there are basically two panes - on the left for what you can request from the other civ, and on the right what you can propose in exchange. The different things are arranged in categories (which can be collapsed so that they don't clutter the space - I have expanded all of them to give you an idea). And you can basically pick and choose whatever you want to put on the table, and click on the different items. Once you do that, they are removed from the lists on the sides (so that you can't select the same tech twice, for instance) and put on the bargain table - the pane in the middle. Once again, the left side is for what you want, and the right side is for what you are willing to offer in exchange. Once you put all the stuff you want, you can click the "Will you accept this deal?" button to offer the deal. If it is accepted, then it is done. Otherwise, the leader (whose protrait is shown above the bargain table - I cut it off, since it is not significant) says the deal is bad, but the table is not reset, so you can either add something on your side, or remove something from what you request to make the deal sweeter for the other civ.

              That's basically how it works in civ3. I haven't player CtP2, so I can't really know, but I searched the internet for some screenies, and it seems to me that the idea there is very similar, only that you don't get the instant feedback on whether the deal was accepted or not.
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              • #8
                Yes, this is very similar to CtP2, except that in CtP2 you can only choose one from each category (i.e. you can offer one tech but not one tech and some gold).
                The additional thing in CtP2 is that, when the civ refuses the deal, you can bully them by threatening to destroy a specific city, making an embargo or declaring war. Threatening to decalre war is particularly efficient.
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                • #9
                  Well, I think we will include the ability to threat other civs in order to secure a good deal. (And just in defence of civ3 - I started a brand-new game to take that screenshot, and took it on my very first encounter with another nation, so there are actually much more different options available in the game - it's just that they are not available yet. )

                  Also, I was wondering. You mentioned that in CtP2, one can only select one option from each category. Do you think that is a good rule? It seems a little too limiting to me, and I prefer to be more flexible in the choice of my options. But maybe that rule could still be useful?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by vovansim
                    Also, I was wondering. You mentioned that in CtP2, one can only select one option from each category. Do you think that is a good rule? It seems a little too limiting to me, and I prefer to be more flexible in the choice of my options. But maybe that rule could still be useful?
                    No, that is a bad thing in CtP2. I mentioned it in order that we don't do the same error.
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                    (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                    web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LDiCesare
                      No, that is a bad thing in CtP2. I mentioned it in order that we don't do the same error.
                      That's what I thought, too. So, then we pretty much follow the model set by Civ3.

                      Now, to change the topic a little bit.

                      I was thinking about what graphics I might need specifically for the purposes of diplomatic GUI, and came up with one important thing I would to discuss: In all of the strategy games that I know of (not sure about CtP2, though), when you contact the leader of another nation, you can see some kind of a pictoral representation of its leader. A head, or a figure, or whatever. The question is: do we want graphical representations of leaders in Clash also?

                      Of course, that might be a little far off from now in the list of concerns, but it would be nice to know, so that when I get to coding the GUI, I could leave a placeholder for the image. Now, if we do want that feature, then that raises a couple of important concerns. Namely, there are no preset civs in the game. The nations are generic and are for the most part defined in the specific scenarios' xml files. So, if we do use that, then the leaderheads should be drawn for specific scenarios, and provided as images in the same folder as the scenario they pertain to, and the name of the images would be mentioned in the xml file. That would also provide great modding ability for the players.

                      Discuss.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vovansim
                        The question is: do we want graphical representations of leaders in Clash also?
                        Yes, at least I sure do. But its not clear leaders will be immortal. We were thinking more like a succession of leaders based on the Characters model. Of course that will be one of the last things coded, so static opposition leads as you speced out should be standard for quite some time.
                        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mark_Everson
                          Yes, at least I sure do.
                          OK, so I will leave some space for that in the diplomatic interface when I get to designing it. Also, maybe targon could provide a couple of pics of genereic leaders as he envisions them? I could use at least some placeholder art.

                          Originally posted by Mark_Everson
                          We were thinking more like a succession of leaders based on the Characters model.
                          I know this is not a big concern right now, but could you maybe elaborate on that a little more? I can see how that would work out in theory, but how would one change the "looks" of the leaders as time progresses? And if the leaders change in the course of the game, there should probably be some system of their clothing or surroundings to distinguis the leaders of one nation from those of another.
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                          • #14
                            And also, Mark, now that I have described the system of diplomatic interactions in Civ3, do you still like that approach more? Maybe you would like to add some suggestions / thoughts / questions / other input?
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vovansim
                              I know this is not a big concern right now, but could you maybe elaborate on that a little more? I can see how that would work out in theory, but how would one change the "looks" of the leaders as time progresses? And if the leaders change in the course of the game, there should probably be some system of their clothing or surroundings to distinguis the leaders of one nation from those of another.
                              We were thinking of making a generic cartoon-like design-a-face system. . . You know, 15 nozes 13 sets of eyes, 20 types of hair, different culturally-specific clothing (shoulders-up only) etc. If you look at the characters model threads you should be able to find it, if you need more details.
                              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

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