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  • Actually, I plan on being a game designer myself, so I'd love to try contributing on this.

    The first thing is that as of right now there is no real distinction between a "city" and "farmlands." Every square gets equal treatment as far as gameplay is concerned. This is very much like how things were prior to industrialization, when the majority of people were subsistence farmers. A more realistic model, though, would somehow designate some squares to become urban areas and grow their pop based on the surplus of the surrounding farms and the transportation technology available. The population of the farmland would correspondingly grow or dimish depending on whether technology/economics made it more profitable to stay in one place or the other. In modern industrial countries only a relatively small number of people now have to work in the countryside - it's going to be a tough transition to model properly.

    The second thing is that there isn't any modelling of technological interdependence and inventions based on economic/social conditions. Farming techniques like crop rotation resulted from the consolidation of land ownership to a small nobility that could afford to experiment, and many modern tools also require modern manufacture(tractors need factories and steel, and those things needed precision machining and study of chemical properties, which needed clocks and education, etc...). I think the "tech tree" Civ model is also inappropriate, though.

    Ideally, I think the advancement rate should mostly be determined by things like environment, population, and most of all economic factors such as goods produced and traded, and communication abilities. For example, it could be done so that the player gets economic choices like "beer," "wheat," "weapons," etc. and choosing different items to be produced results in a new economic "mix" in subsequent turns. If the player wants his civ to learn more about biological processes, he might up the production of beer, livestock, and education, wheras if he wanted improved engineering abilities, he might focus efforts towards mining, bridge and road-building, and monuments.

    The beauty of this system is that it doesn't force the player into the either/or "science vs. production" and "warrior code vs. writing" balance of Civ, which was always kind of lame; scientific research even today can still be roughly split into research based on education and educational systems, and research from industry(and if you consider the military an industry you're pretty much covered), and there's never been a "magic box" - it's all about having the right conditions, and maybe a little luck. The management is also much more clear - either you try to build the economy up into a state where it'll advance, or you focus on more pressing needs like pleasing the population or saving the environment or defeating invasions. It's also going to take a lot more under-the-hood work to build this model than to continue along the lines of the existing system, but as an idea, I like it

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    • Reynard, you should really check the tech model and threads (though these must be old).
      The points you state are not really correct from my point of view. There aren't buffers against infinite growth in the demo but that doesn't mean the tech model is flawed. There may be some factor missing to stunt growth, but tech grows based on what money you put in it AND other factors. For instance, fighting battles automatically improves your military tactics tech. Increasing in farm tech will currently increase the underlying biology tech, and this may let you discover other biology-related techs simply because you researched farming.
      So the current tech model is, imo, very good. The point is it's not used as much as it could be in any of the scenarios because we lack a proper tech 'tree', with techs of all tiers and various applications. To sum it up quickly, anything can be an 'activity' that produces research points, including having neighbours, farming, fighting, or spending money explicitly.
      Clash of Civilization team member
      (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
      web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

      Comment


      • That's fine, then. I might try making a Civ-style game myself someday.

        Comment


        • population growth

          Hi all

          For those who dont know, i've been working on the first (or maybe second ...) social model of Clash some years ago.

          I just would like to put my point about population growth, becuse this is something I've been thinking about along the social model.
          I think population growth (or decrease...) should not be based only on food availability.
          IMHO it is dependant on many factors :
          - general life duration : before the industrial era, the average death age in Europe was somewhere around 30; this obviously limited the population growth;
          - death at birth or before maturity : during the middle ages, very few children (maybe 1 over 3 or 4) reached maturity and were able to have children;
          - mother death during birth : because of lack of sanitation, many mothers died during the birth of their children, thus limiting the number of children they could have;
          - plagues : historically, some grand-scale plagues had a very deep impact on population; for example, the vagues of Black Death plague in Europe during the 13th and 14th century reduced the european population by about 1/3; this is huge and very significant in terms of population growth modeling;
          - lastely, food should have an impact on population growth, but quite limited : the un-availability of food limits the population growth through famine; however, food availabability should not allow unlimited growth if other factors (like good sanitation) are not present.
          - in modern eras other factors count, like "social" factors (in western countries parents have around 2 children, although it is possible for them to have much more in terms of food availability, sanitation etc) or "political" factors (like population growth policies in China).

          Cheers
          Manu

          Comment


          • I mostly agree with Manu. Principally I agree that all these factors should be incorporated in the population growth equations, but we must make sure the player (ourselves included) can comprehend the factors and how to manipulate them.

            In some games I have played, population growth is a “technology”, and in others (Civ and CtP etc.) it is solely based on food, both of those systems are too simple. IMO the factors affecting population growth should be both more realistic and more complex, but presented to the player in a way that makes it intuitive witch of the factors are the limiting factors, so the player can take appropriate action.

            The lower the infrastructure level in a given area, the more dependent the area is on local food and sanitation. But if there is a valuable commodity, like gold or gems, the population level is mostly dictated by the economical possibilities (or rather the perceived economical possibilities) for the people moving there. The same is the case for cities.
            Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
            Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

            Comment


            • Thread Closed

              This thread has done its job, and is finally being retired with the release of Demo 8. Thanks for all the great suggestions and playtesting!

              Please go to: Clash Demo 8 Download and Comments

              Thanks!

              -Mark
              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

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