Working out a new Economy GUI for Demo 7+

[LDiCesare]

I must say I like Richard's proposal, in terms of content.
If you show it in a tree structure, it looks less like an accountant sheet, you would see:
Legion (cost 920) and 2 boxes %age/amount.

I also like Mark's proposal, for military units:I want this amount of stuff in X turns, and the X turns provides feedback on percentage of taxes spent there. I agree about making a whole army repartition window (kind of a unit workshop except it is an army workshop), but think this is not top priority (it won't work if we don't get the other stuff right before IMO).

For wall and road building, when laying out a road or wall, we should have a panel (which you can corss so you won't see it again if you have set your mind forever) asking how much time we should wait before completion and indicating the %age of total spendings that this would require, with a warning if you go into a deficit. This would make the roads/walls costs in the econ panel informative only, reducing both interfaces to a single button/UI: End build would spawn the cost panel, unless you don't want to, in which case it will remember the number of turns you used last time. The dialog could be forced if you go into the main econ panel and say you want to change it.

Thus I'd have two options for every econ order:
%age or amount in number of turns. The %age is always there as information, and there is also the rate of construction amount nearby.

[Richard Bruns]

I really like the idea of the End Build button creating a cost/spending panel for roads and walls that asks how quickly you want what you built. It is IMO a very good way to handle things, since it allows the player to enter the information instantly without going to the econ GUI. That way I can make the decision quickly, right after ordering the build.

It also allows me to be sure that I get that wall up around Marsaglia before Hannibal comes knocking at the door, and also that I don´t ruin the economy or waste any production by building the wall too fast. Very nice.

[Martin the Dane]

OK, I have a few comments.

First to the treeview vs. menu:

Depending on the implementation I prefere a tree-view. But provided its done in a smart way I could live with a menu system.

I think the basic idea behind Richards table is good, but there should be some info available on the higher levels, as well as options to alocate funds on an overall level without expanding the views.

AS to how to decide what to spend on what, how much to build, etc:

I think it should be possible to alocate a certain percentage of the economy to unit building, but it should also be possible to say make X Units over the next Y turns, and make X units each turn untill I say stop.

For roads and walls I think there should be a minimum/default time to build, but also an option to make it a priority matter, and set a maximum resource alocation for the job, but the default should be to automatically alocate the needed resources.

For roads within a given province the province should be able to build a certain stretch each turn, based on the production capacity of that province, and the cost should then be alocate automatically from that provinces economy. But it should be possible to alocate civ funds to speed up road building.

I think the idea of having an optional panel that comes up when you press the End Build, to handle this, would be nice, but the same info and options should be available from the econ GUI.

[Richard Bruns]

I was never suggesting changing the tree-view to a menu. I like the idea of an expandable tree view. In fact, I was trying to simulate a tree view in my example above, but I don´t know how to do that with HTML. The Show/Hide buttons were supposed to correspond to the little arrows that expand and collapse a tree.

Making X things over Y turns is something I agree with, but I think it would be redundant to say to build X things a turn continuously. That is what the percentage numbers are good for.

When you say to allocate funds on an overall level, do you mean something like this:

Military Production: Latium		Number:		Percent:
Legion:	920	Number:		Percent:
Siege Wepons:	Y	Number:		Percent:
Cavalry:	Z	Number:		Percent:

where if you put funds in the top bar it would automatically split them up among Legions, Siege Weapons, and Cavalry? That would be nice, especially if combined with Mark´s idea for setting a force structure for the civ. The player could go to the GUI and set the preferred composition of a TF. Entering a value in the Number: box would tell the province to make that many TF´s, automatically dividing the funds among the various units needed to make that TF. Selecting the percentage option would continuously build units in the proportion indicated by the force structure the player chose.

[LFS]

where if you put funds in the top bar it would automatically split them up among Legions, Siege Weapons, and Cavalry?

That was what i was proposing, each level of the tree would be a subcategory of it's parent (I can see 2 , possibly 3 levels in the tree), allocating resources at the parent level , say 30% to military if left at that would result in the AI (some sort of minister/advisor) allocating that budget to subcategories like pahalanx, siege etc. But if the player opened the tree and allocated resources to phalanx this would over-ride the AI and ensure that phalanx got that resource. The AI may still be left to allocate surplus budget.
eg

Military
+--	Phalanx
+--	Siege
+--	Cavalry

would allocate 30% of total budget to Military. Of this half would go to phalanx, the other half would be left to the minister AI to allocate.

(Note i prefer sliders to text fields, I would still have text fields as well, but sliders give less of an Accountants only' feel)

This approach leaves the player with the option of managing the entire economy from a high level set of econ categories (possibly only 3 or 4) or micromanaging as he sees fit.

It has to said though that although the gui for this is fairly easy, it would require the AI to handle it - though this could be left out for the time being.

[LFS]

There seems to have been a fair bit of discussion on this gui which made me think about not doing anything yet, but anyway I finished a quick mock up of what I was roughly thinking. Here is a screen shot - It is pretty minimalistic, a label , slider, and text box for value for each item. The fantastic red cross icons are to click on which pops up that area of the economy, and just to show that this can go deeper I put specific mines as a sub category of Mines. The sliders are auto balancing.

ultimately each row could acquire extra fields.

I ditched the tree - it looked horrible.

I quite like the popup idea in the end, plus any one could easily be poped up from other places.

It's probably way to simple for Mark, but is about right for me- what do others think

Oh and the income/treasury bar should have icons but an artist I am not (but do mean red crosses)

[Mark_Everson]

Hi All:

I'm crunched for time again, so this will Unfortunately be brief. More Clash time on the weekend!

Lee, I like your mockup. Seems very practical. Add a number slider option for military unit builds and some other types and I think you'll be close to a workable solution.

Looks like you guys are making a lot of progress in the discussions. I didn't see anything I really objected to, and things seem to be going in a good direction, so I'll shut up and move on to other threads.

Good Progress! We'll have Economy really playable soon with this!

[Richard Bruns]

I have no problem with popups instead of a tree, and it is true that the flexibility to bring up the lower level boxes from other places can be good. But we have to be careful that the player knows exactly what each popup is. For example, I should be able to tell which popup box is the Infrastructure orders for the whole civ and which one is the Infrastructure popup box for a certain province. The best way to do this is probably to make the title of each popup should show the whole hierarchy, like "Latium Infrastructure: Mines" instead of just "Mines"

Sliders are nice for setting a percentage, but orders for a specific number of something (2 TF´s in Gaul) need to be given in a text box IMO.

I think it would also be good if the GUI to tell me how many of a certain kind of infrastructure already exists in a square. If there are more mines than farms then I probably need more farms. If the Economics GUI has everything that the Terrain Details box has, then I can get rid of that box on the main playing screen.

Would this be a good time to mention that while I am not specifically an accountant, I am, in fact, a Business major? Business Computer Information Syatems, to be precise. So naturally my idea of a good GUI is lots of numbers and details, and an efficient layout.

[LFS]

I've managed to get a bit more done today (supposed to be in bed recovering from a chest infection but got bored by this afternoon).

I've put in an output box (ie estimated output) and connected all the fields so altering one adjusts the others. Even output can be typed into and it adjusts the % (in my mock up anyway) - useful for seeing what percentage will x output.

Mark:
There is going to need to be some work on the econ model - namely building up a tree of categories, e.g what top level categorie we have, and what are their subcategories. Also I've started trying to work out how to connect my gui model to the econ model. I believe GovtEconOrder is the class I need to be talking to mainly. I'll mail you the main data class the gui uses, with how I want it to wrap the Order class check it out and make sure I'm calling the right stuff. Also a Factory class to build up the tree. I've started to work out how to get all the possible orders but can you check out, in particular I am still to work out how to get province as oppposed to civ level orders.

I think it would also be good if the GUI to tell me how many of a certain kind of infrastructure already exists in a square

I doubt that would be done - The economy at the moment is dealt with at civ/province level, which square would it show.

Would this be a good time to mention I'm not a lawyer. God knows why I did a degree in Law.

But we have to be careful that the player knows exactly what each popup is. For example, I should be able to tell which popup box is the Infrastructure orders for the whole civ and which one is the Infrastructure popup box for a certain province. The best way to do this is probably to make the title of each popup should show the whole hierarchy, like "Latium Infrastructure: Mines" instead of just "Mines"

That shouldn't be a problem.

PS I'm still happy to ditch this if there another design out there.

[LDiCesare]

One thing I hate in windows explorer is when it opens a directory content in a new window instead of expanding the tree and showing the content in the right pane.
That's how I feel when I see the huge (2, or even 3!!) windows for the orders. Can't we have a two-part window like the windows explorer? Or at least a single window with back/forward buttons instead of several?

[LDiCesare]

Now as for the presentation, I think it is good enough, but, when in a province I'd like to see in the same window the amount spent on civ level. So I'd know I already spend 50% of my capital building legions, I will see it and be able to spend accordingly.
This could be done by setting the slider to the civ's position, but then can we slid it backwards (negative spendings) in one province?

[LFS]

Can't we have a two-part window like the windows explorer? Or at least a single window with back/forward buttons instead of several?

My original intent was a tree, but it does not really work, neither would SplitPanes, there is to much on each row- and likely to be more for those who want more detail. A back or up one level button so that you can stay on one screen is doable - how do others feel.

So I'd know I already spend 50% of my capital building legions, I will see it and be able to spend accordingly.

I havn't got round to actually plugging this in to the real economy- i'm working on that at the moment. But your idea seems reasonable.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Lee, good stuff! I'm glad to see if your extra-windows approach works. If it is too cumbersome I'm sure we can come up with something.

Originally posted by LFS
There is going to need to be some work on the econ model - namely building up a tree of categories, e.g what top level categorie we have, and what are their subcategories. Also I've started trying to work out how to connect my gui model to the econ model. I believe GovtEconOrder is the class I need to be talking to mainly. I'll mail you the main data class the gui uses, with how I want it to wrap the Order class check it out and make sure I'm calling the right stuff. Also a Factory class to build up the tree. I've started to work out how to get all the possible orders but can you check out, in particular I am still to work out how to get province as oppposed to civ level orders.

I think I responded to most of this via email already. How you get province as opposed to civ level orders is defined by the Economy that you get the orders from. If it is a CivEconomy you'll get the whole-civ orders. And I bet you can guess what a ProvEconomy does! You can look at the econ button code that fires the current econ interface to see how the different Economy objects are gotten.

Richard: I think it would also be good if the GUI to tell me how many of a certain kind of infrastructure already exists in a square

Lee: I doubt that would be done - The economy at the moment is dealt with at civ/province level, which square would it show.

Just to be clear, the orders in the interface are at province and/or civ level. We can certainly aggregate infrastructure over the province/civ to report the total. Is it that important? The infrastructure only converts to sector yield through a very complicated function so I'm not sure that info is very useful to the player. I had always meant for the player to use the ROI (return on investment) settings to say "build this only if it pays off in 10 turns or less" or something similar.

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Now as for the presentation, I think it is good enough, but, when in a province I'd like to see in the same window the amount spent on civ level. So I'd know I already spend 50% of my capital building legions, I will see it and be able to spend accordingly.
This could be done by setting the slider to the civ's position, but then can we slid it backwards (negative spendings) in one province?

I have actually found myself wishing for a negative province spending in many cases, so that I can cut province investment to 10% on something while keeping civ investment at 30%. Automatically setting province sliders to the civ spending level would be very nice. That way the province overwrites the civ percentage instead of adding to it. But then, there should be an order on the province screen that resets the province percentages to the default civ values.

About the infrastructure information, I meant to say province, not square. Sorry for the confusion. And I think it is important to have some information about what infrastructure there is. Currently I have no way at all of telling the difference between a province with absolutely nothing and a province with lots of infrastructure. Investing in infrastructure always feels like throwing money down a black hole because I never get any feedback or see any results or changes.

Also, when I take over an enemy province, how am I supposed to know how developed it is? The only current way of telling is to look at the farm and resource sites numbers on the terrain detail, and I have no way of knowing how many of those are natural and how many are the result of improvement, except by memorizing the terrain.xml file.

I think it is very important for players to feel like they have built something, and if they can´t see the things that have been built they lose touch with the economy. At least I do.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Richard Bruns

I have actually found myself wishing for a negative province spending in many cases, so that I can cut province investment to 10% on something while keeping civ investment at 30%.

I agree that this is probably the best way to go, but it will take a bit of re-working of how orders work to make it possible. I've put it on my To Do list. Everyone else cool with working it this way?

About the infrastructure information, I meant to say province, not square. Sorry for the confusion. And I think it is important to have some information about what infrastructure there is. Currently I have no way at all of telling the difference between a province with absolutely nothing and a province with lots of infrastructure. Investing in infrastructure always feels like throwing money down a black hole because I never get any feedback or see any results or changes.

Richard, that's what the econ info screen is for! ("Econ Stats" button on the orders window) You can see the production level to gauge productivity or the growth rate to gauge effects of spending. To that you want to add sites, that seems worthwhile. What else? Production per unit labor maybe? Once the orders is done I think a new version of the info frame is the way to go, so thoughts in the area are very relevenat. Anyone else?

Also, when I take over an enemy province, how am I supposed to know how developed it is? The only current way of telling is to look at the farm and resource sites numbers on the terrain detail, and I have no way of knowing how many of those are natural and how many are the result of improvement, except by memorizing the terrain.xml file.

There isn't any site number improvement so far, but we will eventually need it. Also long run it would be good to show "natural" sites vs "created" ones so the player gets a feel for the land development.

I think it is very important for players to feel like they have built something, and if they can´t see the things that have been built they lose touch with the economy. At least I do.

Agree Completely! We need to do that well or all is lost. We can't do all of it now, but we definitely should do the easy ones now. Thanks for the comments to push things in the right direction.