Map Graphics Thread part III

[axi]

This is what I mean:
axi's specials

You can see gold, iron, copper, coal and uranium in some of sas's tiles.

These are definitely more visible and comprehensible than Gar's icons. They aren't so beautiful, but they do their job.

[Gary Thomas]

Mark:

I consider needing to click on a square to see which type of mined resource is present to be unacceptable.

Unacceptable requires the specification of an acceptable alternative. Do you have one? Anyway it doesn't matter because Gar's mines are pretty good.

There are certainly alternatives, like having a resource locator

I will code this today.

While I think the mine-with-lumps concept might work, IMO the present demo versions from your web site at 80x40 will be virtually indistinguishable once put on a map with different colors and units on it.

They seem pretty clear to me, and much more identifiable than the military units.

colorr:

The mine entrances look much better!

I agree.

Another idea is having a spoon like the ones used in forgerys to contain melted metal that is poured down into a pool. The pool and the metal flow would have the color that differentiates the different metals.

This is a way to identify processing plants, not the source of the ore.

Gar:

One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

This is critical information which only Mark can provide.

Also, is fog of war an overlay or does that need two versions of a resources (dark & light) or will resources remain bright in fog areas?

The fog of war is implemented by dulling the colour in the final map square, including all known characteristics such as cities and resources (but not units, which are not seen).

I would imagine that a square has to be prospected in some way to discover whether resources are present, but I am unaware of any discussion on this issue.

Axi:

You can see gold, iron, copper, coal and uranium in some of sas's tiles.

Now we need the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Hindi, Arabic, Russian and Greek versions please.

Cheers

[axi]

Oh, come on Mr. Thomas! The chemical symbols are used internationally!

These signs/bullions can of course be 3D but it was hard for me to do them in a reasonable amount of time.

The colors make the bullions distinguishable even when they are zoomed out, in the browser (this will screw the alignment, but try it nevertheless).

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Gar
One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

Hi Gar, my expectation is that specials would be between 5 and 10% of tiles. But that could change on the upside depending on playtesting. I would not rule it out that every square could have its special at this point, though I think its not likely.

The chemical symbols are used internationally!

Axi, there are lots of thing used internationally by specialist communities. That doesn't make them suitable for a game played by everyday people.

They seem pretty clear to me, and much more identifiable than the military units.

Wow, Gary, our perceptions must differ Radically. The military units each have a unique shape and mixture of colors. The mine ones have a few dabs of different shades on them. I can't remember which game, but something I've played had similar resource icons to the ones proposed. I was forever cursing and squinting at the map to see what the h*ll that particular one was. I have Never had that problem with our units icons, and don't forsee that happening as their number increases.

But anyway there are proposals available that put a much larger swath of the descriptive color on the icons, which should be sufficient. Since the icons can be swapped out using the xml file, if I'm the only one that's unhappy, I can use Axi's or another alternative set with relative ease!

This is a way to identify processing plants, not the source of the ore.

Just for the record, I currently have no plans for processing plants for metals. But I guess since the econ framework allows two-step industries (or even n-step processing industries) we should avoid processing-based icons for ores if possible.

I would imagine that a square has to be prospected in some way to discover whether resources are present, but I am unaware of any discussion on this issue.

There has already been some discussion. Probably its in an old map-creation thread. But I would like to ignore the issue for quite some time if possible.

[Gary Thomas]

The chemical symbols are used internationally!

They may be used internationally, but are they understood internationally? Perhaps 5% of the world's population knows that Au means gold. About 90% knows it comes out of the ground and is yellow.

Which chemical symbol would you use for oil? Or even salt? Or marble or amber (both important export products in ancient times)? Or diamond (which is different from charcoal)?

The military units each have a unique shape and mixture of colors.

No they don't, elements have images, and they are not unique. I never quite know what a particular unit symbol is going to be and always have to click on the square to get the information from the task force frame. To be blunt, I would be hugely happier if the images were a characteristic of the unit rather than the elements. There is no reason why this should not be the case, simplifying code and giving a much clearer message to the player.

In any case we have far too few unit incons to make them very useful at present.

There has already been some discussion. Probably its in an old map-creation thread. But I would like to ignore the issue for quite some time if possible.

Does this mean they should all be visible? That's OK, now I have to find out how they are recorded, if they are recorded, so I can put them in the scenario file and then display them.

[Gar]

My site is updated with a worldmap with resources on it, maybe 5% distribution or so. The mine images are updated with more color and variation in the ore placement. Also added wood beams (think they were colorr's suggestion) to the entrance for the silver and gold for extra identification. I placed some resources in dark squares and faded them.

Going to move to economics screen samples for next couple days to allow the various perspectives on resources to ferment.

-Gar

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Gary Thomas
No they don't, elements have images, and they are not unique. I never quite know what a particular unit symbol is going to be and always have to click on the square to get the information from the task force frame. To be blunt, I would be hugely happier if the images were a characteristic of the unit rather than the elements. There is no reason why this should not be the case, simplifying code and giving a much clearer message to the player.

Oh, That's what you were on about Gary. Your proposed mod is fine by me. Provided Laurent agrees I've got no problem with it. But still we will have to show an icon for the TF on the map, which will be the most-representative unit in the TF. Could you bring this up in the units graphics thread, and we'll take it from there?

All Resources should all be visible at this point, as I think you'd figured out.

Hi Gar:

The 5% distribution looks like it should work. I am worried that fog-darkened versions of one metal will look like a different (darker but same tone) metal. FE silver darkened might look a lot like tin.

Going to move to economics screen samples for next couple days to allow the various perspectives on resources to ferment.

Sounds Great. I admit to being more concerned about getting an approach for the econ gui worked out than on the resource icons now that you've provided some reasonably serviceable ones.

[RM]

I think the resource map mentioned by Mark in an earlier post is a good idea. It would help to keep the ordinary map clean, and still have large and clear resource icons. The resource map does not have to account for fog of war either, since resources do not move around.

The resource panel could also contain a panel with explanations of the various icons (which would be almost necessary if you choose to use the chemical symbols, but could also be helpful if you use graphical icons).

[Gary Thomas]

Here is a sneak preview of the new Carthago Delenda Est scenario, with province boundaries and coastlines.

Cheers

[axi]

Duh!

Which chemical symbol would you use for oil? Or even salt? Or marble or amber (both important export products in ancient times)? Or diamond (which is different from charcoal)?

I meant the chemical symbols to be used only for the metals! An oil derrick can be used for oil, a diamond for diamonds. These are distinguishable - two different lumps of ore or unmarked ingots are not.

They may be used internationally, but are they understood internationally? Perhaps 5% of the world's population knows that Au means gold. About 90% knows it comes out of the ground and is yellow

Okay, then our game will serve an educational purpose. All models in Clash contain stuff not known to the wide public, which anyone who wants to play will have to learn about. F.e. I didn't know that ironclads ever existed before I played civ2.

And btw, where I come from, we learn this stuff at the age of 14, the latest. It is really elementary knowledge.

Mr. Thomas, that pic of yours looks good!

[Mark_Everson]

Well since Gar has vanished for more than a month, Perhaps some alternative tiles for the specials he had done are in order...

IIRC we never actually got the tiles, although maybe it'd be possible to pull them off his web site. So this is another thing you could look into Twinge.

[Mark_Everson]

I'm trying to get economic specials (gold, cloth) put back to function in the next week or so. For that we need images. Anyone that wants to take a shot at some specials images is very much encouraged to do so! Please skim the discussion above, where the topic wound up quite some time ago.

We probably need a place/way to show specials that doesn't screw up the appearance of citys, many of which will have specials.

Thanks,

Mark

[Mark_Everson]

We also need images for walls. From wooden stockades to stone walls. Laurent, how many gradiations do you think we need?

[chequita guevara]

How many tiles can the game engine handle per terrain type?

[LDiCesare]

Che, the number of tiles is not limited. (Although that looks great, you must understand it costs performance, but I don't think it is a bottleneck) I don't know how overlay things are handled to be honest, but knowing how graphics are integrated, you can add as many as you want to.
For walls in ancient times we could have two or three walls: wooden, (packed earth and wood,) stone wall. The middle one is optional. Depending on geography, I think different walls were used (more bricks in dry warm countries, mixed stone and wood in Gaul). Having two graphics for such an intermediate wall would probably be too much in terms of detail.