Demo 6 Comments and Bug Reports

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Lemmy:

Glad you liked the models. They were designed while coding was ongoing, but admittedly the models usually ran well ahead of the programming. Too bad you didn't make time to check out the demo... that's life. Hopefully we'll have D7 out within a month or so. Things are fairly close for it, but all the programmers seem to have too much RL at the moment!

[Big Dave]

Sorry if this is a duplicate bug

I played Demo 6 last night (Cradle) as Jerico and enjoyed it. I did notice that at one point Army1 got duplicated. I had Army1 in two captured cities and whenever I added a unit to on of these Army1's it was added to both. Both armies were defending their respective cities. However when I issued move orders to them one caught up to the other one and they merged back together. I can try to duplicate what I did, but I have no idea if the Economic settings had anything to do with it. If they did, you're out of luck, sorry. I don't remember them.

David

[LDiCesare]

Hi Big Dave. Thanks for posting, and congratulations, this looks like a new bug. Well... I don't think the economy plays a role in that bug. If you are able to reproduce it, I'd be interested in knowing how to do it as right now I can't see what could cause the problem (and thus can't get rid of it).

[Twinge]

Whew, finally read through all of that stuff. This is one message board where you can't really read more than one big new thread per day =)

6. When I click on a unit and it appears in the "Units" window, it's nearly impossible to read the text above the units. Yellow and Green on a grey background doesn't work too well.

Ok, I think I know what he's talking about and I noticed it too. I belive he's referring to the the fact that each Army (and the text accosictaed with them) in the Units window is shown in the Color of the civilization that "owns" it. It looks really bad for the Yellow and Green Civs (available in the 3rd scenario if not the others). Not a tough fix (Nor an important one, but do it by 8 at least

2. When I click "Next" in the Events window that pops up, it just disappears. I don't think it's supposed to do that.

Looks like you missed or at least didn't respond to this one. I noticed it too; another simple (although not dire, again) fix most likely. I'll go into a little more detail to clarify: When the events window pops up at the begging of the turn, you can hit previous to check the previous turn's events. If you press Next to go back to the current events, the box disapears.

Hopefully we'll have D7 out within a month or so.

Heh, you said that 3 months ago I've programmed myself, so I know how it is, don't worry =) Always takes at LEAST 3 times as long as you expect.

It's a shame your not programming it in Visual Basic. I know that would prevent use from Macs, but we don't have that currently with Java either =) It works fine and all, but with VB I could fix some of those "non-essintial" type glitches in only a few minutes. (PLus I could help code, heh. Oh well) It's ok tho. It's looking decent in Java so far and is moving along smoothy (considering there are what, 3 coders?) and I look forward to D7.

Another irksome style you use is how the menus work. When you click on a menu that has more than one option associated with it (IE, almost every single menu) they pop up somewhere else on the screen. I find that pretty annoying; If it was done similar to standard windows submenus (where you move the mouse down to the menu target, and the submenus pop out--like the start menU) that would be ideal. Something close would be good too; right now it's quite odd =) Perhaps having that fixed by D8 would be good.

Related to the above: Some of the submenus are really unneeded. I primarily refer to the Hide options; If you just want to hide it, you can close it or you can click on the map to give it the focus. There's probably some reason they are in there but it's not obvious to me

I still need to play around with 6 some more, but there's my inital findings. I mentioned this on another thread but I'll post it here real quick too: At one point during my initial test run, It would not let me end the turn. I played probably 4, maybe a few more turns, kinda at random, just moving TFs around and such. Then on that turn after messing with the economics at semi-random, I go to end the turn and it told me "Cannot end turn, this turn still in progress" (Or something similar; That should be enough to find the code related) I waited a while, tried assigning new commands, messed with the econ some more and it still kept saying that any time I clicked End Turn. I don't know if it's reproduceable, but I'll try.

On a "helping out" note: It sounds like you still don't have much of anyone working on graphics. I'm certainly no graphics expert, but if you could send me copies of most of the sprites you use to work off of as a basis I can probably make a few new units, modify the roads a bit, etc. You can send them over to twinge@sluggy.net . A short list of soon-to-be-needed graphic concepts would be good too.

So to sum up: It's nice to see you guys are still working on this project, even if it's going slower than expected I'll have to review some of the models again. It'd be nice if you highlighted changes to them like you did in the manual (that is, if there have even been changes over the past year... might not of been since your focusing more on coding than the abstract concepts (which is good... the good old threads will still be around when we need them again .

EDIT: One more bug I almost forgot to mention. There seems to be some sort of bug involved in clicking on the very bottom squares on the map. Sometimes I can click on them but Usually I can't. I try reclicking and it won't work. The bug is very inconsistant and hard to peg down; It seems to depend, somewhat, on what square you are on before you click the new square. I've only seen the bug on the 3rd scenario but it likely exsists on the others. To sum up: I can move the selected tile anywhere on the map with 1 or at most 2 clicks EXCEPT for the very bottom row, which requires a lot more clicks or sometimes don't select at all. Hard to fix, but fairly important. (Esp on the 3rd Scen, there's a city on the bottom edge that's quite hard to click on

[Twinge]

EDIT: man there sure are a lot of things that can suddenly pop into a mind =) What if units from 3 or more Civs move on to the same square at the same time?
Also: do units fight when they pass each other or just when the end up on the same square? (For example, 2 opposing units with movements of 4 each go perpendicular to each other. They cross at 2,2 but don't end the move in the same square)


Here's a sample screenshot of the Ugly Color Scheme/Units WIndow Bug:

[Twinge]

Messing around some more I rencountered the Can't end a turn bug.
I still can't decipher a trigger, but I copied the end of the info window:

Starting Turn 111, 8450BC

COMBAT Turn 111, 8450BC

Combat in [5, 9] () won by Assouds



Abu Hureyra armies

Attack: 205.0
Defense: 210.0
Health: 10.0
Cost: 7.399999
destroyed



Assoud armies
Attack: 635.0
Defense: 220.0
Health: 10.0 down to 5.2000003


Turn 111, 8450BC complete

-----------------------------------------

Starting Turn 112, 8445BC
COMBAT Turn 112, 8445BC
Combat in [5, 8] () won by Assouds


Abu Hureyra armies
Attack: 205.0
Defense: 210.0
Health: 10.0
Cost: 7.399999
destroyed


Assoud armies

Attack: 635.0 down to 325.0
Defense: 220.0 down to 110.0
Health: 5.2000003 down to 1.3000001


Turn 112, 8445BC complete

-----------------------------------------

Still running last turn, cannot start a new one

Still running last turn, cannot start a new one

Still running last turn, cannot start a new one

Still running last turn, cannot start a new one


This time I was just running through turns of a computer only game on the 3rd scenario. (The first time it was on the 1st Scen with me as the Romans)
There were 2 Civs remaining at this point. The Abu Hureya had 3 Armies and the Assoud had 5.

Hard to go into much detail since I can't think of anything special about the turn prior to the freeze-up.

P.S. sorry for posting so many messages in a row like this, I just keep finding something new or thinkng up something else each time I hit submit

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Twinge:

Thanks for all the comments, and especially the willingness to volunteer for a bit! As soon as I post this I will send you the "Clash testbed" that is an executable version of the current code that we are working on for demo 7. It has up-to-date graphics and gameplay features, although there currently is a very nasty bug in one of the scenarios.

The can't-end-turn thing is not informative in and of itself, it just indicates a bug sometime during the turn handling. But thanks for trying. If you are interested in going to just a little bit of extra work, you can get us the stack traces that Will tell us where the bugs are. Here's what you need to do:

Go back to the download page for demo 6 and read the instructions starting with "Attention:" about what to do if the demo bombs. Set yourself up to run with a batch file as indicated. A stack traces of the error will now show up in the DOS window created when the batch file is run. If the stack trace overflows the DOS window, you can modify the batch file so that it runs Clash D. 6 with the "-ef" commandline switch, which tells the program to log errors to a file called error .txt There is more about this in documentation that comes with the Clash testbed.

On something you could do in terms of graphics, unfortunately I am really crushed for time tonight. My suggestion is for you to run the Clash testbed early version of demo 7 and see what is there as graphics. Then you can look at both of the unit graphics and map graphics threads to see what the last request for, and choose what you would like to do from those. IIRC we need is an ancient transport ship, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Thanks for being willing to take a shot at this! Please post on what you intend to do in those threads, and we'll take it from there.

I'll add your comments and bugs to the list when I update it, which should be fairly soon (I Hope!).

[Twinge]

The can't-end-turn thing is not informative in and of itself, it just indicates a bug sometime during the turn handling.

I didn't think it would offer too much help, but I can at least show that the bug exsists and the general area it exsists in. I gave as much info as I could, but it will still be a tough one to find.

Ok cool, I'll check out that version today or tommorow probably.
what's the standard size for your one-square grapics? 32x32?

Another minor bug: The info pane sometimes flashes on the map pane before the turn has fully loaded. It stays until you give the map the focus. Nothing big obviously and it'll probably be gone when you get rid of the info pane. Just thought I'd mention it.

Hmm ok, I ran it with error logging, but It didn't log any events for the inability to end turns I think I can effectively make the bug happen if I just click end turn a whole bunch in a row, although the other times it happened during normal circumstances. It does however log the "Can't click on the bottom row" bug, and I'll post the error here:

Exception occurred during event dispatching:
java.lang.NullPointerException
at game.movement.Direction.nextSquare(Direction.java: 336)
at game.movement.Direction.nextSquare(Direction.java: 326)
at game.geography.gui.MapCoord.(MapCoord.java:89)
at game.geography.gui.MapPanel.getSquareAt(MapPanel.j ava:186)
at game.geography.gui.MapPanel.getSquareAt(MapPanel.j ava:198)
at game.geography.gui.MapFrame.getSquareAt(MapFrame.j ava:130)
at game.manager.Coordinator.getSquareAt(Coordinator.j ava:166)
at game.movement.MapInputMode$Normal.leftButton(MapIn putMode.java:159)
at game.movement.MapInputMode.leftButton(MapInputMode .java:81)
at game.geography.gui.MapPanel$1.mouseClicked(MapPane l.java:75)
at java.awt.Component.processMouseEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.processEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.retargetMouseEvent( Unknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.processMouseEvent(U nknown Source)
at java.awt.LightweightDispatcher.dispatchEvent(Unkno wn Source)
at java.awt.Container.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Window.dispatchEventImpl(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.Component.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForHierar chy(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarch y(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)


This will appear in the error file after the 2nd time you try to click a bugged bottom square. Hopefully you can find it from that =) It's a shame the other bug doesn't log... going to be a tough one to find.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Twinge:

Originally posted by Twinge
Ok cool, I'll check out that version today or tommorow probably.
what's the standard size for your one-square grapics? 32x32?

Best to look at the tiles themselves, since I'm not really up on the graphics end. I could guess, but might do more harm than good... Best to ask this in one of the graphics threads, where you'll hopefully get an answer soon. If not I'll dig in and find out what the specs are for you.

Hmm ok, I ran it with error logging, but It didn't log any events for the inability to end turns I think I can effectively make the bug happen if I just click end turn a whole bunch in a row, although the other times it happened during normal circumstances.

Yeah, pushing it a lot is a problem, but with an easy workaround, "Don't do that!" . But as you say it happens otherwise and those are the tough ones. My guess is we should put some diagnostics in the turnhandler so that when that error popped up, it can tell Which turnhandler the bug happened in. That in combination with what happened in the game just before (first unit built or something similar) could be enough to get somewhere.

Thanks for the stack trace. Probably better would be to see if you can reproduce the error in the D7 testbed. I should have thought of this before, but the code has evolved now quite a bit from D6, so the stack traces from D6 will probably only be really useful half of the time or so.

If you want to go into heavy-duty bug-finding (and we Do need someone to do that, starting soon) its best done from the relatively recent D7 code I sent you. Sorry I wasted a bit of your time lookin' for the D6 traces . They may still be informative too, just have to see.

[ruskiyparen]

I found Clash of Civs just this week. I was just looking thru alt. civs. in apolyton and this one looked like it had the most potential of being a good game. I like the fact that its not going to be another clone.

Where do I find the manual that explains some of the game concepts? I've searched your site and this forum, and still have no idea where i can find it. It would really help, especially with the economy.

I've noticed that if there is no army in a city it cannot be captured-goes both ways comp. and human player.

The economic window is really confusing- I don't know what effect some of the things have. I looked at the computer's economic info (computer vs computer) and they pretty much leave everything the same (20-phalanx, 20 prod. 10 resources) - something like that and they keep growing, so I guess it does'nt have too much effect.

I don't want to go into too much detail since a lot of the things (never-ending turns, no finances for road,..) have already been mentioned before

Keep up the good work!

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by ruskiyparen
I found Clash of Civs just this week. I was just looking thru alt. civs. in apolyton and this one looked like it had the most potential of being a good game. I like the fact that its not going to be another clone.

Hi ruskiyparen, glad to hear you think so, we certainly like it that way. Things are Far to inbred in the gaming industry, and misc. game projects too!

Where do I find the manual that explains some of the game concepts? I've searched your site and this forum, and still have no idea where i can find it. It would really help, especially with the economy.

Um, have you read the D6 Manual? It is available on the D6 download page. If you want deeper than the D6 manual, try the model pages on the web sites, and also the more recent discussions.

I've noticed that if there is no army in a city it cannot be captured-goes both ways comp. and human player.

Fascinating, I'd never noticed in D6. Anyway, its fixed now!

The economic window is really confusing- I don't know what effect some of the things have. I looked at the computer's economic info (computer vs computer) and they pretty much leave everything the same (20-phalanx, 20 prod. 10 resources) - something like that and they keep growing, so I guess it does'nt have too much effect.

It does have effects, but as part of our low-micro-management philosophy many orders become inactive automatically when they would be a waste of resources. See the part on ROI in the D6 Manual econ page.

I don't want to go into too much detail since a lot of the things (never-ending turns, no finances for road,..) have already been mentioned before.

A bunch of things have already been fixed, like the no-finances popup. And as you said no point in repeating it...

Keep up the good work!

Thanks!

[Gary Thomas]

the "Can't click on the bottom row" bug

I just found this a few days ago - it was a real cutie, and is now fixed (in D7). It only affected the bottom half of the bottom row!

Cheers.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Gary:

If possible can you also move the map down a row so that there's a full row of black above? The issue is that unit icons on the top row get cut off. If this is a big effort, then I guess skip it for now.

[Gary Thomas]

Not sure of the implications. After a quick look at the code I fear that trying to do this might have consequences elsewhere. I will bear it in mind.

Cheers