Demo 6 Comments and Bug Reports

[Mark_Everson]

Re: anyone thought of

Originally posted by KILER
Making the gui skinnable?
How about all the artwork in game skinnable?

Does the game use A* algorithm for pathfinding?

Hi KILER:

Lots on your top list are possible. But we are focusing on getting something we can Play first, and worrying about skins and such later. The interface will likely change Completely, aside from main map handling, by Clash 1.0. The pathfinding is indeed done with A*.

Laurent:

There are occasional bugs in the road-building funds handling. I think its in the bug list. The cost of roads is just a temp kludge Gary and I worked out. It will be Much more sophisticated in the future. But part of the reason its so fast at 30% road building and above is that 30% is an Enormous amount of resources to put in roads. What real 'civ' spends more than a few percent of revenues on road-building? There are so many other competing demands...

[KILER]

kool

I'm new to Java programming but have been doing c++ bfore but I'm still a n00b at both lol.
Does A* automatically scale with the cpu speed or are you just going to set to a certain value?

BTW Are you guys going to release the source code anytime soon?
I'm just wandering cause I just want to mess around with the source code and mebe change some values and names here and there and try and add things just for fun.

I am also wondering:
In Java can you programm it to take full advantage off things like SSE 2?
Can you also add machine code to it?
Also can u link a Java script files to it? (I would assume you guys would have done that cause you probly must have written the ai in java script and then linked it to the main project).
Thanks

[KILER]

btw

Can the Coding Model and Macro Language Model handle Java?

QUOTE:
. For each contiguous map region calculate:
its size in squares
its "center of gravity" (this need not actually be in the feature)
other regions that abut it (using edges recorded above)
QUOTE END

I think the center of gravity would prove quite usefull if you left it in the features, just think about what can be done?
Gravity influences the amount of feul a spaceship needs to reach it's destination (the more gravity the more feul needed).

Also you can have whirlpools (if it's in the disasters module) would be much more accuratley configured with a center of gravity.

Movement of every object also would be influenced by gravity as well.
Just a thought of some of the possiblilties of leaving "center of gravity per tile" in the features.

Thanks

[Mark_Everson]

Hey KILER:

First thing, this thread isn't for discussion of everything in the project. It'll quickly get out of hand if that happens. So please in the future stay focused here on demo 6 issues, and post other things in the correct threads. Please read the "Suggestions" link off the web site.

Release the source code? : I will try and send it to you the next time I put together the entire package. It would be for your personal use only, no re-distribution by you allowed.

SSE2: don't know what that is. Javascript is Completely distinct from Java, and we don't use it. Machine code makes the game platform-dependent, which we want to avoid.

"Center of gravity" you've misunderstood. It has nothing to do with gravity per se. It just means the central area of a region.

[LDiCesare]

(Edit: Did some formatting)

But part of the reason its so fast at 30% road building and above is that 30% is an Enormous amount of resources to put in roads.
What real 'civ' spends more than a few percent of revenues on road-building? There are so many other competing demands...

Yes, but in the game, which is not a simulation, it seems weird. There are so many things the player doesn't see, that roads, which are something he sees (and not in a lost menu but on the map), should have more importance than in real-life.

Anyway, players need feedback on how much money to put in the road-building (so I don't put 30% where 5% is needed), and they can stage it over several turns.

For example, in the EndRoad button we could show a panel saying the roads will cost this much $, propose an option like build it in 1,2,? turns, and, optionnally from which econ (civ or province) the funds should come. When this panel fades, econ orders are adjusted automatically, and when the roads are built, road-building econ orders are automatically reset to 0.
Of course one could still go manually type the road costs in the econ window, but I think it is very hard for anyone to guess how much money they must put to get their roads built.
As an alternative this panel could be a road-building preferences panel so you set it once and for all, but the changes to econ orders still occur after hitting end road and when the roads are built.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Laurent:

Good ideas! Do we have a Roads thread yet? If not, want to start one with your comments? Some of your ideas may be a bit premature, but they should be recorded somewhere that they won't be forgotten. I think a thread is better than just a note in the small features file since I expect there will be some discussion on the best approach.

[Chris Wilkinson]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
SSE2: don't know what that is. Javascript is Completely distinct from Java, and we don't use it. Machine code makes the game platform-dependent, which we want to avoid.

Mark, I think he means a script file containing java...an interesting idea being able to change the source code for a scenario or something but I can't program so I don't know if that's possible.

[LDiCesare]

It is in theory possible to use java as a scripting language for the game. The only problem is you have to know some of the APIs, but it allows for making computations like square roots and other silly things easily. The problem is to wire an interpreter, which I think we should consider only much later. Chris, KILER, if you want to discuss this particular topic more, I suggest the Events/Scenarios thread, as it has to do with customization.

[Blakis Maximus]

This was originally posted in the Documentation: Manuals and Tutorials thread:


Hi all,

I have been lurking for the past few days trying to read as many threads and models as possible (there is a lot out there - much of it outdated I believe). Seeing as how I first learned of Clash early this week, I have some observations and suggestions to make from a newbie's point of view. Hopefully most of this won't be old news/redundant.

1. First of all, let me say that I think this is a great project and has the potential to be far superior to Civ III or any other 4x game currently out on the market. You guys have made a lot of progress! Keep it up!

2. I have played around with Demo 6 and I think it would be great if there was an updated manual or in-game tutorial that explained how everything works. The economic model is ambitious and needs to be better explained (I still don't know what ROI means). I'm not saying dumb it down; the detail and complexity is great (traditional vs market economy - awesome!).

3. As I'm sure you know, the interface needs a lot of work to make it look more like a game and less like Microsoft Excel.

4. I've seen a lot of discussion on terrain and unit graphics and the like. Is there a reason you're not simply using all the great graphics from modpacks that have been created for Civ II and Civ III? It seems to me there are a lot of mature graphics out there that would work great here, and you could save yourselves a lot of time by not reinventing the wheel. The graphics in Demo 6 are nice but they aren't as polished as some of the stuff out there.

5. Tiles in the map that are double-clicked and right-clicked should show appropriate information. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's the equivalent of a city view screen in Demo 6.

6. Why can't I just use the arrow keys to move a unit one tile at a time?

7. There needs to be keyboard shortcuts for everything. Using the mouse is slow.

8. Of course, this isn't necessary now but sound would be nice. Again, there are some great user-created sounds out there.

9. Showing the progress of a battle would be nice.

That's about it for now. I don't know if this is appropriate but have you guys thought about make your source code available. I would love to get the chance to look through it even though I don't have the time to actually add anything useful (I'm in the process of switching jobs, which is somewhat stressful). I'm a pretty good Java programmer and I think it's cool that you've chosen to develop with it...


Reply from Gary Thomas:


Another Java programmer - quick, catch him before he gets away...

3. As I'm sure you know, the interface needs a lot of work to make it look more like a game and less like Microsoft Excel.

This is in the pipeline. It will still be tabular though, using swing tables.

4. I've seen a lot of discussion on terrain and unit graphics and the like. Is there a reason you're not simply using all the great graphics from modpacks that have been created for Civ II and Civ III? It seems to me there are a lot of mature graphics out there that would work great here, and you could save yourselves a lot of time by not reinventing the wheel. The graphics in Demo 6 are nice but they aren't as polished as some of the stuff out there.

We don't use them because:

1. They are not ours.
2. We haven't the time to find them and dig them out (volunteers?).
3. Many are in odd formats - we haven't the resources to do format conversions (voluneers?).

5. Tiles in the map that are double-clicked and right-clicked should show appropriate information.

In the plan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's the equivalent of a city view screen in Demo 6.

Don't know what this means.

6. Why can't I just use the arrow keys to move a unit one tile at a time?

You can, unless it is broken. Too busy to check just now.

7. There needs to be keyboard shortcuts for everything. Using the mouse is slow.

Also in the plan.

8. Of course, this isn't necessary now but sound would be nice. Again, there are some great user-created sounds out there.

A long way down the track. Before that we need things like saving games...

9. Showing the progress of a battle would be nice.

Ditto.

Cheers

[sas]

Well, this is my feeling of the game so far:

Basically, the game doesnt feel like a game. I know its fully playable, but it feels lacking. So what ? we're not finished yet..


*My main complaint as allready mentioned i think, it's the economy model/menue. It looks very complicated (allthough its really not that difficult), and should be make much more userfriendly.

Suggestion: Bars instead of boxes. Make some of the numbers hidden in the interface. You dont really need all that info on everything.

*Make it more easy to know when the next unit is made/finished.
*Make it possible to remove a planned road. I pressed the wrong tile a couple ot times, and couldnt remove it. Mabie i'm missing an option here.
*How about when you hold the pointer still over an icon, you get a short summary of what it does ?

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by sas
Well, this is my feeling of the game so far:

Basically, the game doesnt feel like a game. I know its fully playable, but it feels lacking. So what ? we're not finished yet..

Thanks for the honest assessment sas It already feels a bit like a game to me, at least sometimes, but we each have our own set of things that turn us on and off...

*My main complaint as allready mentioned i think, it's the economy model/menue. It looks very complicated (allthough its really not that difficult), and should be make much more userfriendly.

Suggestion: Bars instead of boxes. Make some of the numbers hidden in the interface. You dont really need all that info on everything.

I hear you... rest assured that you won't need to put up with all those numbers if you don't want to as the game becomes more mature. For now it is a way for players to see "under the hood" of the economy model. And I have put in More numbers not long ago at other playtesters request. The final interface will look nothing like that, and there is so much going on in the Clash economy that actually figuring out what the right things are to put in the interface and how to arrange them won't be trivial. But right now I am working on getting the social/government model going, and I think that's more important than refining the economic orders interface. When we are ready to tackle the next generation of economic interface, I'll solicit your advice, as well as the rest of the team, before we get too far along. Gary is also working on a different approach to government orders for the economy, and hopefully we'll get something more streamlined in terms of an interface out of what he is doing.

*Make it more easy to know when the next unit is made/finished.
*Make it possible to remove a planned road. I pressed the wrong tile a couple ot times, and couldnt remove it. Mabie i'm missing an option here.
*How about when you hold the pointer still over an icon, you get a short summary of what it does ?

All these are known issues, but mostly low priority compared to the other things we could do with the time. Hopefully the online help and information stuff will get going in not too long.

Thanks for your comments!

[colorrr]

Hi guys.

I played the v.6 demo and have some comments:

I did enjoy it, the turns go really fast!

I have not played much Clash, above all I found the economic system confusing. I had to guess more or less what I had to put in each slot in order to get any results.
It is hard to see the end results of my actions/investments, and that is a bit of a turn-off.

The interface leaves a lot to be desired, but of course, the game is still in development.

Also found it a little strange to get the unit constructed message one turn before the unit really appeared in the city. Maybe there could be a ghost unit in the city representing that next turn this unit will appear there?

Oh, and the strange update problem with the info boxes of the economic display appearing before the rest of the screen happens to me too.

Another thing I noticed when ordering long movement paths is that a unit sometimes shows it's already executed orders, and the units is like at the middle of the drawn path on the screen. Don't the old orders get deleted when they are executed?

That's it, some good meaning critics. This game will be great when it is finished!

Jorgen

[Blakis Maximus]

Hey Clash Team,

Any idea on when the next demo will be available?

[axi]

Another thing I noticed when ordering long movement paths is that a unit sometimes shows it's already executed orders, and the units is like at the middle of the drawn path on the screen. Don't the old orders get deleted when they are executed?

These numbers on the paths are there for a reason; they show you in how many turns the unit will be on each tile. This is the whole point of setting a unit's path: to give orders to the unit for many turns to come. This is an advancement over civ2 already established in the genre (It was in SMAC and CtP and I guess in Civ3 too)

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Jorgen, thanks for the comments!

Originally posted by colorrr
I have not played much Clash, above all I found the economic system confusing. I had to guess more or less what I had to put in each slot in order to get any results.
It is hard to see the end results of my actions/investments, and that is a bit of a turn-off.

This will get cleaner as time goes on. I will try to get something for estimated time-to-build for military units in for D7, which seems to be the thing that most annoys people.

Also found it a little strange to get the unit constructed message one turn before the unit really appeared in the city. Maybe there could be a ghost unit in the city representing that next turn this unit will appear there?

That's a known bug that is already in the list.

That's it, some good meaning critics. This game will be great when it is finished!

Thanks again, the criticisms do help in figuring out where we should put our limited resources!


[edit]
Blake, the best guess on the next demo is around the end of the month. It should have a substantial number of new features, and be basically what we described as the Demo 7 target in the Demo 7 & 8 planning thread.